Pigeon Restoration

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DavidRutherford
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by DavidRutherford » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:44 pm

BX Bandit wrote:One track mind you folk, especially Mr Jay! You love it though really and I did secretly have a scratch'n'sniff of the seats :mrgreen:

David, hmmmm, that's a conundrum you've given me! This is what I had planned

1) remove all running gear, pipework, suspension, engine, gearbox air con wiring loom door mirrors, seats, and all black trim and 16v bumpers.

Essentially a shell with doors, bonnet and boot. Most of it is for spares, esp the head inc n/a camshaft and Bosch pump. The block I have provisionally sold to Doc.
The gearbox is non standard TD and I need the 3rd and 4th gear sets for the valver.

I've already removed all black trim and dash, rear seats, front discs/pads. You'll also need a new exhaust as the one on there is like French lingerie although you may get away with a patch job.

You'll also need a set of wheels although I can lend you four steelies.

Rust wise, there is some welding required on the rear chassis leg, it's got rust around the wind screen aperture although not the worst I've seen, the rear valance needs finishing, although I seem to remember I'd be better off removing the old one and fitting a new one.
I seee your point. It's probably more work that I have time for at the moment anyway...

In other news, the fact that you have white smoke and still have bubbles in your coolant is a point for concern. Bubbles should all be gone within a few minutes if you have no problems. Are they big bubbles or tiny frothy ones?
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by Defender110 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:59 pm

DavidRutherford wrote:In other news, the fact that you have white smoke and still have bubbles in your coolant is a point for concern. Bubbles should all be gone within a few minutes if you have no problems. ?

/\ as this, white smoke in a diesel is more related to coolant problems than over fuelling, black smoke over fuelling (when at operating temperature) blue smoke for oil burning.
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by BX Bandit » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:56 pm

Yes sorry David, I was happy to try and work something out, but in any case it wouldn't be drive home able without a bit of work. As it happens, I may need the engine out of it anyway.

Right, onto the problem. New cambelt, checked again today and all lines up as it should.
Regarding the bubbles in the header tank, mostly frothy ones but with slightly larger clumps of bubbles coming through. There were moments of no bubbles for a few seconds at a time but I think it's had time enough to purge itself. However I want to give it one more chance - I found a loose jubilee clip today, which I suspect wouldn't of let air in but it's worth trying again since I've tightened it up.

Onto the white smoke, I decided to check the timing today. One thing that struck me as slightly odd is that the pump was at one extreme of it's adjustment slots. The pump at the top side was as far away from the engine as possible, so if anything, retarded. I don't have my fathers dti with me so I choose to measure with a Verneer calliper. Btw, this is a Lucas pump.


Using the hbol as my guide, I used a 7mm twist drill as the 'rod' from which to take measurements. Hbol says that between roughly 90degrees btdc and tdc itself, a dti should indicate a value as scribed onto a plastic disc on the front of the pump. 5.56 is what is scribed, yet my errrr, 'rod' rises some 22mm. With the pump advanced as much as possible, this figure dropped to 18mm, so, what am I doing wrong?

I found that a thinner rods were not reliable to use as they didnt always pick up the rising 'cam' inside the pump. The 7 mm drill is the widest object I can fit down the pump.
I've measured several times and found a repeatable result.
:idea: just thought that if the woodruff key is missing then the pulley may of slipped. I will check this.
Any ideas chaps?
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by JayW » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:28 pm

Defender110 wrote: /\ as this, white smoke in a diesel is more related to coolant problems than over fuelling, black smoke over fuelling (when at operating temperature) blue smoke for oil burning.
Sorry, i actually meant unburnt fuel (had a nasty blow to the head a couple of days ago)!


Is she firing on all 4 Bandito?

The pump has never been moved on that one, always being left in place while heads were swapped around it. Always fired up and returned well over 60mpg of Scrooge-Runs.

I really feel it's down to the head you've got mate or HG failure. You said the head's from a 306? What happened to the TZD one?
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by BX Bandit » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:00 am

She's running on all four mate yes. Smoke aside, when she was warmed up without any air in the fuel she ran sweetly and started on not even a turn of the starter. Perhaps the timing issue is a red herring, I can't see how the Verneer reading is so far out but if the pump was that far out the engine wouldn't run at all.

So, I shall return the pump to its original setting and run her again. I'm more concerned about bubbles than smoke at this point!

The gasket was a Payen, if its anything it's the head. The tzd head is still in the tzd but if I stil get bubbles in the tgd then I'll swap the whole lot over.

I have been half tempted to sell both cars as a going concern for whomever to do whatever they like with, but I won't..............for now!
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by BX Bandit » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:29 pm

Sadly, it's goosed. Bubbles still in header tank, although this only happened once warmed up. Idle wont smooth out, maybe air lock in pump? No air getting to pump though - at last!
Also, there is the tiniest of weeps/bubbles coming from the timing advance solenoid, right at the end of it.
So I'm cutting my losses and doing an engine transplant from my tzd.

When in Rome, what else can I do with the engine out. Very tempted to convert the octopus into hard piping, pneumatic style. Thoughts?
have some balls
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by barry badger » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:56 pm

I wouldn't regard slight bubbling in the header tank as anything to worry about, i would run the car at 2,500 - 3,000 revs until the fans have been on and off several times, let the engine return to idle and then take the cap straight off, if it only gives the barest hiss then i would regard the head gasket as ok. This test needs to be carried out from stone cold. I'm sure some will think this is cobblers but it's worked for me.
As regards blue/white smoke this can also be caused by a restricted air flow into the engine, i had this on a 2.2dti frontera only last week with malfunctioning swirl flaps, they were closing when they shouldn't causing blue/white smoke and misfiring.
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by JayW » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:43 pm

Having already had a recent Octopussy that will probably outlive the car, i'd say save your time!

Not really much else you can do, fairly sure most of the usual suspension parts have been renewed, balljoints & d/l's for sure (you have the receipts), asside from that just a check-over of the doseur and rack, not much else there really.

Reaaly disappointed it's giving you a hard time :(
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by BX Bandit » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:08 pm

Well, if there is a God, then it's nothing short of a miracle, but as I believe the isn't one I've just a turn of fortune.
Although I've not known a cooling system to hold onto air locks for more than an hour or two, I was encouraged by Barry's comments above and thought I'd give it one more chance.

After the usual repeated attempts at starting, she eventually got going with the usual white smoke and coughing......but no air bubbles. She ran rough like that for half an hour and still no bubbles. Well, that's good news I thought.

I then just happened to glance at the pump where the nuts are that secure the timing slots. For some reason I thought 'why not, it's worth a go'. So I re-timed the pump just under mid way along the slots for a first best 'guess'. So where she was at the retarded end of the travel, she was now just a smidgen under 'half way'. Hey fucking presto as they say! I can't believe it.

Thanks Jay, I know you replaced it but I thought that whilst I had the engine out I may as well do my little project with the hard piping but I won't bother now, she seems good to go! Thanks for your words of encouragement and sympathy mate, I must confess that the last few days I've been almost ready to call it a day with bx's.

Anyway, as you say everything else mechanical is sound although I will change one thing and that is the drivers side rear arm, partly as it has the read disc protector thingy and partly as I put a new bearing on it about a year ago or so, so,I'm trying to take a preventative maintenance approach - I'm of the opinion that those rear brake protectors (the disc jobbies bolted to the rear arm) also go some way to protecting the rear hub bearing but that's prob in my head.

I am considering transplanting the wiring loom for the air con before she goes back on the road - I can basically love without the bx till September now, so I may as well take my time. The rust behind the rear bumper, although minor, will progress rapidly this winter, so I'm in for the full works, much easier when the car is off the road.

Will try the car tomorrow to make sure she's ok still [-o<
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by JayW » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:55 pm

New arm bearings were done mate, have pics! (and a bugger they were too)
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by BX Bandit » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:53 pm

I know they were mate, I shall either swap the bearings over or keep them for spares - the tzd ones aren't bad although one side is leaning I think.

Just fired her up, on the fucking button! That's Lucas pumps for you, all in all the better pump, just not quite so easily tuneable and running 20 bar less than the Bosch, so not quite so good atomisation, something that is very subtle, but noticeable.

Am so relieved, she sounds sweet as a French bird talking dirty!
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by JayW » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:09 pm

Oh, Monsieur Bandit! Oui, oui, oui, donnez-moi encore une fois ... ;)
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by mat_fenwick » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:54 pm

BX Bandit wrote:I can basically love without the bx
I'm glad and relived to hear that.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow mate, I must say the bubbles stopping has surprised me but I can't see them coming back if they've stopped. I've never had a problem with bleeding despite taking no special precautions but it seems a lot of people do! Maybe I'm just lucky?
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by Defender110 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:22 am

Excellent news well done I'm really pleased for you. I've never had a problem with bleeding either but have read about others that have. In reference to the brake protectors you mentioned they are usually known as 'back plates' if you need to do a search.
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1987 Citroen BX MK1 diesel estate.(Currently in dry storage)
1997 Mercedes C230 W202 - daily driver.
2010 BMW X1 SE 2.0D Auto - Her indoors daily driver.
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Re: Pigeon Restoration

Post by BX Bandit » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:45 am

Back plates, that's the chapees......

Thank you for your encouragement, especially the dirty French talk from Jay, I'm nursing a semi as we speak! And I'm sure Mrs Bandit is glad I can love without a BX, it would be pretty sad if I couldn't!

I've never had much problem bleeding a bx either till now. The only rational explanation is that maybe the constant coughing and poor/low idle meant it took that much longer? It's rather odd and worth keeping an eye on it. I started her up this morning, what a peach! No coughing, smoother than a smoothie in smoothsville!
have some balls
1990 BX 16V Platinum Grey
1990 BX TZD (with A/C) Pink
1990 BX TGD White
2003 Audi A6 2.5 TDi
1960 Morris Minor Clarondon Grey
1971 Triumph 2000 Auto Valencia Blue