John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

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Dragon Man
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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Dragon Man » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:08 pm

sigh, well the engine out job is not going as planned. ive had a friend do most of the work as i am too busy at work. sadly his logic is to cut and keep bending pipes till they snap which i specifically said to not touch any pipes.

so i have many snapped pipes... and many where i do no know where they go as nothing has been labelled.

talk about a nightmare. still no luck finding an engine replacement. almost bought a 80k miles 406 with the 19 xud in but well.. the seller never answers his phone or replies to emails the car has no mot so i cant get it back here. he was only the next town over.
also the fact Citroen uses there own pipe sizes is making it hell. still not managed to talk to the hydraulic specialists.

also how do you get that top bolt out of the AC compressor mounting? i cant get anything in to get it out.. the bolt is loose but wont pull through.

and to top it off i have a monster cold.
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by rutter123 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:19 pm

I still have the bx t/d engine, go on Dragon Man make me an offer, will save you so much trouble in long run, i know its high miles but its good, i may have the hydraulic pipes you need as well-i suspect your man has broken the ones from the flow valve as the flow valve needs to be disconnected from the bell housing before removing.
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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by DLM » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:01 am

Hi Dragon Man. I'm a one-time serial BX and BX estate owner who hasn't been on this forum very much in a long time - quite simply because I've not run a car since the last BX I had. I'm pleased to see someone who's found an eminently saveable BX and wants to save and run it . Many congratulations on finding it, and getting over that tricky recovery/transport phase. Here are some opinions after reading about your purchase and viewing the gallery. Feel free to agree/ignore/disagree with them.

1. You have made a good choice in going for a BX which appears to have a good bodyshell. Finding or fixing an engine involves a lot less pain than serial welding. BXs were better than most in terms of corrosion resistance, but it would be a miracle for any car of that age to have escaped unscathed. A viable bodyshell is a must - nipping any corrosion that does exist in the bud is a must for long-term ownership.

2. You have a chance now - while the car's off the road - to give that bodyshell a really exhaustive check. As the hydraulics are currently u/s (see later comments), you have nothing to fear from dropping the rear subframe to make absolutely sure you rectify any corrosion in that area. Somoene's already mentioned that area, I see. I'm speaking from experience as I've owned an estate in a metallic silver/grey finish which looked impeccable but required attention in that very area. You have nothing to lose - except pain and regret in the long term if it isn't done now.

3. Along the same lines, you also have the opportunity for a cool-headed and realistic assessment of the front to rear suspension piping, and to assess the health of the inner sills. Most of the time there's a natural reluctance to embark on bodywork work in that area as the piping runs along or near to the sills. Once the bodywork is verified, you might want to consider repiping using durable kunifer for long-term ownership. That can be done in stages, and the front to rear piping is an excellent place to start as it's the least-often-changed and hardest-to-change run of piping.

4. You've already found what can easily happen when someone without a feeling for Citroen hydraulics is let loose on some of the non-hydraulic bits - collateral damage. It helps to think of the hydraulics as a system rather than a collection of components, and not disturb it without good reason. Unfortunately that runs counter to the way some people work. I strongly suggest you need to find someone with green blood in their veins to assist and/or advise (professional or enthusiast) - or become one yourself. Once you get used to the logic it's more straightforward than many think.

5. Even if you can't locate a green wizard in your immediate area, you can make a lot of progress using photos and asking considered questions. You'll get a range of opinions and can then choose what advice to take or ignore.

6. On the road, the BX definitely lives up to the first part of the advertising tag-line used when they were new: "Loves driving, hates garages". BXs thrive on regular rather than occasional use, and indeed need use to keep the mechanical systems exercised. What they need on the garage front is regular and intelligent maintenance, much of which can be DIY.

Apologies for banging on, if you feel this is irrelevant, but the very best of luck. P.S. I'm a former Fiat Panda owner too.
Relying on two wheels and musclepower since the last BX (or any car) had to go.

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Dragon Man
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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Dragon Man » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:03 pm

thanks! ill take any help i can get! i am going to do some work on it now with my brother.
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Dragon Man » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:24 am

well we almost have the engine out.. i have to undo one more pipe connecting the block/head to the heater matrix and then undo the gear linkages and that should be it.. it will be just the engine mounts holding it in.

took the radiator out and it is in fantastic condition for saying its 26 years old! same goes for the AC radiator. heh naturally the AC was completely empty, so to make thing more easy i have disconnected it all, capped off the pipe ends and put everything out of the way so it can all be safe from damage. it does take the old R12 gas so would need to converting to R134A. it may need new pump seals but i did manage to pull a vacuum on the condenser and it held for a good 4 hours showing no signs of leakage. like i said visually it looks in fantastic condition not even any paint flake!

removed the bonnet just for better access, and because it was damn easy to do so.

ahh i do need to take off the hub nuts and pull the drive shafts out. ill also take the time to overhaul the drive shafts.. one has a split CV boot. the others however look fine, but i will replace them too.
the steering rack gators need to be changed too as they are split. the hydraulic steering actuator looks to be in very good condition with no pitting which i am quite happy about.

theirs still a bit of meat left on the brake pads but for what they cost i will replace them. maybe even the disks too. i would like vented disks as the ones on this are not. i have had brake fade on my panda and it was not pleasant. given that this is a far more heavy car, i would like the extra help when it comes to stopping. mind you, it does have ABS.. which will be the first car i have had that actually has it. one of those things that i hope i will never need.. but its nice to have. not sure on the back brakes, but ill change them over too. also noticed that the hand brake is all built into the front brakes. thats pretty nice to be fair. oh it does have a wire snapped on the front drivers side caliper.. my guess is that it is a break pad ware indicator? its not off the ABS sensor thankfully.

oh i also found previous repair work on some of the hydraulic pipes. about 5-6cm (2 inch for you lot who insist on keeping the imperial system alive - i hate imperial gahh :evil: ) of rubber pipe has been used with 2 screw type hose clips to create what i would only call a masterpiece. its around there , just behind the drivers front wheel where i had the pressurised LHM leak when i lifted the front up using the forklift. think i have said, but the forks were no where near the damn hyd lines... but it still banged off. i think it was corrosion combined with me spinning the pump up to test the system, then jacking the front up putting more pressure on the rear which caused it to give. my guess is that it is a common place for them to go.. along the front sub frame the bottom engine mount is on.

i am impressed with how bad this engine leaks oil.. the underside is completely covered! how the hyd. pipes have corroded i do not know... :-k also how it never showed up on any previous MOT tests i do not know! if i was a tester, i would have marked it down and advised.

i have got my eye on an S reg (1998) 406 with about 125k miles on the clock.. more than what i want but its close to home and i am pretty sure i can sell other parts of the car to recover the costs. the car is being sold with no MOT for £130. if i get it, i will take the engine out give it a full cleaning up, replace the gaskets, belts and other perishables, mate it up to the BX's gearbox (after a new clutch, bearing and spring install.. may as well) and may even give it a nice coat of paint. a nice darkish green for old push rod petrol engines, but for a diesel engine it has to be red.

heh maybe if i can get hold of a nice VNT turbo i may do what these guys have done:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg1mJqPb3V4[/youtube] (edit - please fix the embedded videos not working)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg1mJqPb3V4

not really for horsepower, more for economics... and ok you got me.. the sound.
i have seen a few videos about where 306's have had VNT's stuck on them and they sound pretty good.

hey i have the engine out.. may as well make a few modernisations to it may even consider installing a front mounted intercooler too... lets face it, the "free" a diesel engine is, the more economical it becomes. i did notice that it already has quite a wide bore exhaust on it.. nice.. nice.. i may not have to touch any of that.. its even in really good condition too.. no rust anywhere on it!

my brother tried to take the wings off but one of the bolts holding the inner plastic arches on just spins so we abandoned that for now but will come back to it.

still not had chance to ask the guys next door about the hydraulic lines.. gahh.. the time just flew by.

even with this massive cold i have.. it felt damn good to be back under a car again.. i think i am one of those rare people where i actually enjoy being under the car/bonnet as much as i am in the driving seat.

well i guess ill be pulling some seat belts from out of some other poor scrapped car and using them to hoist the engine with.. it is almost time..

well maybe next week haha. i tell you, a forklift is a dream tool. even though the batteries are knackered on it and it only runs off the charger (thank god its 3 phase!).. it still beats other methods..

i'll be doing another video soon.. i've not done one in a while.
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by mat_fenwick » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:23 am

DLM wrote:Hi Dragon Man. I'm a one-time serial BX and BX estate owner who hasn't been on this forum very much in a long time
A blast from the past indeed! Good to hear from you :)

I really wouldn't worry about changing the pipework to 'conventional' methods - it was obviously done for a reason (maybe higher pressures?) and even the steel pipework will last 20 years. Once replaced with kunifer it should last indefinately. I've NEVER seen or even heard of a joint itself failing, so using conventional flares would be a lot of work for no actual gain.
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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by DLM » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:51 am

Hi again Dragon Man - glad to hear the BX is providing some satisfaction on the "getting hands dirty" front. You engine in place, have

(a) captured a fairly rare beast with an aircon-equipped diesel BX and
(b) saved yourself some grief in terms of dashboard dismantling if you'd been set on fitting or transplanting an AC setup into the car (I was once the extra pair of hands when transferring aircon from one BX to another). I'd check it's not been left non-working and dormant on the car for years if an original fitting with all that implies for types of seals and components.

You're talking of transplanting in a non-original engine and relocating (front-mounting?) the intercooler. However, if you are staying with an XUD-family engine, the cooling system as fitted needs close attention and a proper temperature gauge in place to ensure you know what's happening at all times. I'd expect to have an aircon-specific double-fan arrangement in front of the aircon: keeping that setup and the associated control system in tiptop condition is essential to give the necessary airflow for cooling. The stock cooling system was fine when new, but can easily become borderline on non-AC cars if not sympathetically maintained. In other words, tread with care if doing anything at all on the cooling system that might make it less effective. Also the standard instrumentation only gives whoops-warnings, i.e. "I've probably cooked the head gasket" (orange light) or "I've definitely cooked the head gasket" (red light).

As Matt says, the BX hydraulics and pipework are a mature and stable system, pretty much the culmination of 35+ years of traditional Citroen oleopneumatics, before variable settings and electrical control was introduced with the Xantia and XM. In that time they were more than able to get the basics covered. Hydraulic system problems most often come from abuse, neglecting maintenance on fluid changes and components, and not checking pipework for corrosion (or perishing rubber on the low pressure returns - possibly the least durable part of the overall system). If you're looking to flare and pipe yourself, I'd tool up for it the Citroen way - why make life more complicated (if you see what I mean). If sticking with the (very good) Citroen ABS brakes, do check elsewhere on here about the flexible front brake hoses - a part unique to ABS-equipped cars on BXs .

Incidentally, I'd make sure the leak you're describing isn't from the low-pressure return part of the hydraulic system, as the rubber pipes definitely don't like oil (ditto for the lower engine mount bush). There are also plastic sections which can pop out, especially as there can be significantly higher return flow if some hydraulic components have been left too long before they need to be overhauled or replaced.

Matt - Thanks, hope you're well and thriving. I can certainly see you're still driving...
Relying on two wheels and musclepower since the last BX (or any car) had to go.

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Dragon Man
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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Dragon Man » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:54 pm

DLM wrote:You're talking of transplanting in a non-original engine and relocating (front-mounting?) the intercooler.

Also the standard instrumentation only gives whoops-warnings, i.e. "I've probably cooked the head gasket" (orange light) or "I've definitely cooked the head gasket" (red light).

If sticking with the (very good) Citroen ABS brakes, do check elsewhere on here about the flexible front brake hoses - a part unique to ABS-equipped cars on BXs .

Incidentally, I'd make sure the leak you're describing isn't from the low-pressure return part of the hydraulic system, as the rubber pipes definitely don't like oil (ditto for the lower engine mount bush). There are also plastic sections which can pop out, especially as there can be significantly higher return flow if some hydraulic components have been left too long before they need to be overhauled or replaced.

if i can ill be sticking in another XUD in... i know you can mod an XUD to push 200bhp but thats way too much for me. i will be happy if i can get it just over 100hp. maybe 120hp max. pretty much everything i do to the engine will be in the intrest of economics. a front mount intercooler would be nice if i can but to be fair i am not that fussed.

i REALLY plan on fitting some kind of temprature gauge.. that 2 colour light system screams problems.

i will be keeping the brakes original.. you say thay are good? thats good enough for me!

in what way are the front flexi brake hoses unique? they "look" like standard brake hoses?? unles they have used silly sizes again.. sigh.

i plan on replacing all perishable rubber parts.. will see how it goes haha.

i really hope nothing is blowing by loads of LHM fluid.. i will check all of the returns individually to see how good/bad they are. (just like checking diesel injecters!)

oh the pipe that blew when i jacked the car up must have been high pressure it blew when all the weight of the car when on the back wheels.

thanks Mr. DLM!

oh.. i have another video on the way for you all to see too so stay tuned!
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Dragon Man » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:17 pm

woohoo the engine is out...

the bad news is that some things broke in the process.

the main one being one of the pipes going in the car to feed the heater matrix. now looking at a picture of the heater matrix, it has a bit that bolts onto it? i think that is what i need to replace. does anyone know where i could get one?
i cant believe just how many pipes are actually on the engine alone!

i have already ordered a new clutch kit and some steering gator boots. but does anyone know the size of the ball joint dust covers? on ebay they sell them as small med or large. i think they are small.

also, where is the best place to get hold of CV boots? also i noticed that some seem different than the others? i guess the 2 outer ones are the same and the inner are both different from each other?

ill be looking for flexi hoses for the front and rear, a water pump, a thermostat and housing next.

anything else anyone can recommend me change while i have the engine out?
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Dragon Man » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:45 am

here are some pictures.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dthe9lb5MHs[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dthe9lb5MHs


Image

Image

you can see the pipe that has snapped off. the one above the braided coolant hose going through the fire wall.

Image

Image

Image

Image

sadly the damage was caused when i was not around. i wanted to spend a long time prepping to take the engine out however the chap doing the work had other plans.
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by sleepy0905 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:31 pm

Me billy and ken did mine in a day i drove it over to chester, we took the engine out of billys estate and out of mine then refitted billys in mine and i was back in lincoln for bedtime same day easy job lol
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Dragon Man
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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Dragon Man » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:43 pm

we had to drop it out through the bottom as it just would not fit out of the top.. we had no way of tilting the engine sadly.
when i get a replacement and i eventually fit it, i will bring my chain hoist with me and use that on the gearbox side so i can tilt the whole thing down.

i am just on ebay at the moment shopping for brakes as i am going to change the discs and pads all around. i actually lost my dad due to bad brakes on a bike that was only a few years old (one of the previous keepers messed around with the brakes and nicked an o ring seal while trying to push it back in.. that just popped when my dad really needed it.) i am going to make damn sure it does not happen to me. its one of the reasons why i REALLY want to replace ALL of the hydraulic lines and complete breaking system. like i have done on my pair of panda 4x4s.

does anyone know where i can get this replacement plastic pipe that goes through the bulkhead and feeds the heater matrix??
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by sleepy0905 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:17 pm

I seem to remember replacing mine with rubber hose after mine developed a leak i would nead to delve through a huge box of papers and photos to be sure. I miss having a BX but cannot afford one at the moment.
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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Defender110 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:27 pm

H&S would have a field day with these photo's ;-)
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Re: John Dragon Man's Citroen BX Diesel Estate

Post by Kaapelimies » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:12 pm

Dragon Man wrote:does anyone know where i can get this replacement plastic pipe that goes through the bulkhead and feeds the heater matrix??
You need a new heater faucet (is that what you call it? The adjustment of coolant delivery to the heater matrix). The pipes are a part of it.
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