Petrol engined (1.6) BX questions.

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cavmad
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Petrol engined (1.6) BX questions.

Post by cavmad » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:05 am

Have the chance to go and view the 1.6 petrol BX local to me on eBay and hoping to go tomorrow afternoon.
Hasn`t run in a while and this is what the owner has told me about it:
apparantly when it started going wrong he had to rev the knackers off it to pull away from stop and was concerned about pulling out at junctions and I`m sure he mentioned the car ran rough as well and would struggle for revs quite a bit. He also said he thinks the fuel tank is faulty as it won`t take as much fuel as it used to, he seems convinced something ha made it`s way into the fuel tank and blocking it somehow.
My personal take on this is that if something has then maybe that`s what caused the revving problem: i.e something`s blocking the outlets and not letting enough fuel through which would cause intermittent running problems?
He says the last time it happened it limped home then never went again. Despite charging the battery fully and constant attempts to fire it up it never did so he just left it there where it`s stayed ever since.
If the fuel tank is the problem and something has blocked it I`d imagine I`d be unlikely to be able to get it to run just enough to raise the suspension and tow it home. If I win the listing do you think it would be worth changing the fuel tank first then seeing what happens and is the an easy DIY job I could do without `proper` garage ramps? Finally (sorry!) any ideas what might actually be blocking the fuel tank and is it likely to be visible if I lift the rear seats and remove the sender unit?
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Post by mnde » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:32 am

Finally (sorry!) any ideas what might actually be blocking the fuel tank and is it likely to be visible if I lift the rear seats and remove the sender unit?
A small dead pigeon..?? Seriously cav, sorry to be absurd, but we can only have a rough stab in the dark here without the aid of clairvoyance ;)

What does he mean by "it won't take as much fuel as it used to"? Does he mean it comes spurting out of the filler cap way too early? (don't know off hand what capacity should be) Does he fill by litres rather than "pounds-worth"? What does the gauge read?

Could also be blocked jets or blocked fuel filter... or any number of things.

Try removing the carb fuel inlet hose, point it away from the engine (or into a container) and have him turn the engine over. Should be able to tell if this is the prob if it's dribbling fuel rather than spurting (as long as pump is okay). Do this before trying to look into or remove the fuel tank :?

Good luck :)

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Post by jeremy » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:11 am

Under the back seat are 2 plastic discs which conceal the gauge sender unit and the outlet pipe unit. Both come out by rotating (anti clockwise I think) and give a hole into the tank large enough to get your hand and arm through. Why not remove one and have a look - and if you remove the outlet pipe one you can check its filter.

Usual health warnings - ie smoking while paddling around in your fuel tank may seriously shorten your life.

My guess would be an air leak between the tank and the lift pump on the engine or a blocked filter. However somehow I suspect this guy knows more than he is letting on due to his very elaborate explanation (vegetable oil, water, diesel, sugar??)

jeremy

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Post by cavmad » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 am

Thanks for the replies chaps, appreciated as ever. He said that the car used to hold (for example) 47 litres of fuel and now only takes 30 litres so is convinced something has dropped inside the fuel tank and therefore limiting it`s capacity.
Also appreciated the note about being careful when checking inside the fuel tank: I work in the petro chemical industry and can assure you I`ll not only be wearing full PPE but will also disconnect the battery and eliminate any possible chances of sparks and ignition sources. I`m hoping that if I do `win` it there won`t be much fuel in it at all to make the task of checking and possibly replacing the fuel tank easier.
I suppose another potential concern is that it`s something that`s not part of the fuel tank that`s blocking it if you catch my drift, meaning it`s another part of the car which`ll need to be replaced?
Whilst I`m on would I be correct in thinking that BX diesel tanks are different to petrol tanks? I thought there may have been different fuel line connections or posibly more outlets on a diesel than a petrol? It`s just that if I do replace the tank I`m sure a diesel one will be easier to find in a scrappy than a petrol one.
Also fair to assume estate tanks are different to hatchback ones?
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Post by jeremy » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:53 pm

There has been a suggestion that they use different plastics but Vanny runs a petrol tank in his car which may be diesel at the moment.

Saloon and estate tanks are the same. BX 14 has a smaller tank. Estates may have a longer filler but I'm not sure and think the filler may be further forward. GTi's and TD's (and possibly some others) have a small additional tank in the back wing which connects by a tube to the main tank. This may be the normal filer tube for the tank.

If the capacity was reduced by that much it would be a very large pidgoen. More likely the dip tube in the tank (access under the seat) has cracked or something or even perhaps the filetr has dropped off effectively shortening it.

Its much easier to sort out the existing tank than replace it which probably means removing the exhaust and accessing a number of screws/bolts all over the place. I believe Jon wrote up a description of what was involved earlier this year, and its probably on the Frenchcarforum site.

jeremy

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Post by cavmad » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:14 pm

More likely the dip tube in the tank (access under the seat) has cracked or something or even perhaps the filetr has dropped off effectively shortening it.
jeremy[/quote]

Thanks Jeremy, I found that quite encouraging. It sounds (on paper at least) a relatively simple chore if it`s something as simple as that. I`m banking on getting the car at the right place and therefore if I do knacker something up it won`t cost a fortune to sort and also won`t have cost me to much if it`s beyond repair.
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Post by AlanS » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:18 pm

If it's a carby version, just do as has been suggested and connect a bottle with a hose to the intake of the pump and get someone to hold it up and gravity feed to the pump. We used to do this when tuning cars for economy runs years ago to get the fuel consumption to a premium before we started.
With the tanks and fuel lines, they seem to degrade with time and dusty shit from the tank and lines gets into the carby jets.
Still working on it being a carby model, only way to cure them is to remove all jets (make sure the centre two go back in the right way) blow out with compressed air and also blow out the holes they screw into.
Fit an EFi type filter before the fuel pump and the small non re-useable one between the pump and carby.
Petrol tank losing capacity sounds like something akin to delving into the realms of the supernatural. I wonder if it's just a case of the breather system getting blocked and blowing back when filling? If it's an EFi car, then perhaps this might be the running problem also.
Also, with early 1.6 engines, keep a close eye out for corrosion in the block between cylinders 1 & 2 as the casting was very thin and it can eat through there. I had one go on me, but we devised a cheap and effective way of fixing it. If the coolant looks like whiteish swamp water, chances are it will have a corrosion problem.


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Last edited by AlanS on Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ken newbold » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:19 pm

Another way of checking the prob, Have a can of fuel handy and run a pipe direct to the car thus bypasing the tank and pipework,

P.S I've only ever done this with diesels. Petrol could be a bit iffy.
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Post by Stewart (oily!) » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:39 pm

I have seen the filler pipe twist, making them bloody slow to fill, more likely the pick up thing under the back seat, theres a nylon filter on there which can be removed and blown out, lots of symptoms that feel like fuelling are often ignition faults, heres hoping for a no parts fix (after you buy it for a tenner :D )
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Post by roscoe » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:29 am

It could be as simple as the fuel gauge sender not reading properly, so he thinks his tank is empty when it's still 1/4 full or so. That happened to my TZD and is starting to show up on the 16V. I took the sender unit apart and the float contacts were tangled up in the silver etching on the circuit board, preventing it from going right to the bottom. The tank is just a big empty container, so unless something was physically put into it to lessen capacity (bloody hard doing it through the filler pipe, I'd think), the obvious culprit is his gauge is reading wrong.
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Post by sleepy0905 » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:41 am

Try this one i have only seen it onece where the breather pipe at the tank gets blocked and the tank gets sucked in which also restricts its capacity but also stops the fuel going down the fuel lines the temporary cure is to leave the filler cap open and it will run as long as the destorted tank hasnt damaged the fuel pickup.
Its a long shot but i have seen it once we had to replace the tank and filler neck and that cured it but that was the same problem erratic running and having to rev the nuts of it till eventually it dyed and just would not go again we used Kens method of pipe and can to bypas the tank and it worked so we drove it back to the workshop on a length of pipes and a fuel can acting as the tank.
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cavmad
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Post by cavmad » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:18 am

Thanks peeps! I think I`ll try and fire it up using the can and pipe method, hoping it will get the suspension up enough to tow it the short way home though I won`t be towing it with the can in place under the bonnet just in case.
It`s a shame my recovery truck is off the road as I`d only need to get the suspension up enough to drag or drive it on the back and once more to get it off again.
The biggest problem now is that someone (from Portugal!) has bid on it and if it`s some sort of scammer or t*ss*r then it might just make life difficult.
Anyhow it`s D day today, arranged to go round about 4.30pm tonight for a quick scan and chat with the owner who seems friendly enough.
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Post by adamskibx » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:02 pm

Hello- Cavmad, I would guess that Rosco is most likely to be right. A friend of mine told me that his MIni only takes £15 worth of fuel, so I asked him to look in the handbook to see how much it holds- 7.5 gallons, which is more like £30 worth- It turned out it was just coming on the red light way too early. Alternatively, try filling it up slowly by only pressing the fuel pump slightly and not puting it all the way down the filler pipe. It could be the breather pipe is blocked or something. I know that on my old 1.4 BX I went over a large rock that knocked the sensor out of position and it read incorrectly but showed full when it was full- It later droped off completely and I replaced the sensor- The old one will still be floating around in there today, meaning its about 50p less to fill up:-)

Good luck with the car- hopefully you'll grab a bargain due to a potentially very simple problem.

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Post by cavmad » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:16 pm

Thanks. I`m counting down the time until he`s back from work! Been quite a good day today one way or the other so I`m hoping my luck continues......
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