More TRD issues

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:35 pm

Today I wanted to overhaul the cooling system as I've got two long journeys ahead in the next week.

I drained out the cooling water which was a foul rusty colour, then flushed it through, re-assembled, re-filled and started it. I wanted to get it warm then add some Wynns radiator flush then repeat the whole process.

I was standing there waiting for the thermostat to open when suddenly oil started pissing out somewhere under the sump - probably about quarter cups worth. I stopped the engine, checked everything and started again :
this time no oil (?)

Thermostat opened and water started to circulate in the radiator but then I noticed steam rising from a wet patch on the radiator! I was starting to suspect the raditor was blocked but it seems it's got a leak as well. This afternoon I'm going to take the radiator from the yellow one which was new last year ( kindly supplied by Ken) and fit that.

Question is ( amongst others) where is that oil coming from? This engine probably got such a good cooking with the previous owner who blew the head. Could it be the sump gasket? Is it advisable to drive 2000kms in this condition?

The irony is that one of the journeys is to pick up a new engine!

Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Cheers

- I'm also fitting a temp gauge. I've tapped out the old 14mm sensor for the new 10mm one. Just got to wire the thing in

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:02 pm

Before you change the radiator, please note that if water is spilt on the radiator while it is being filled, it will steam when the 'stat opens and the water evapourates of its fins, make 100% sure that you do really have a leak before changing it, but that said if it is blocked it really wants changing regardless...

With regard to the oil, I would monitor the situation on another cold start. It could be something daft like a leak on the oil filter when oil pressure is high on cold starts.

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:06 pm

Thanks Jonathan - I think you were right about the water on the rad. That had occurred to me but it just didn't want to stop steaming so I assumed there was some sort of leak but it did stop.

The Wynn's rad flush seems to have cleared the blockage in the rad ( as well as loads of nasty brown stuff)- it now heats up uniformly for the first time. I spent over an hour giving the system the bleeding of its life so hopefully that's sorted too. As for the sudden expulsion of oil - I've got no idea where that came from.

The wife's taking it out tonight, full of her mates so I'm hoping that I don't get a distress call

As regards to the temp gauge, any advice on where I should take the 12v supply and the earth from? There is also a wire that goes into the light switch and dims the gauge when the lights are turned out - where would I wire this and how does that work?

Cheers again!

Philip Chidlow · Post by **Philip Chidlow** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:34 pm

toddao wrote:The wife's taking it out tonight, full of her mates so I'm hoping that I don't get a distress call

Her mates aren't that bad are they?

Let us know if the oil makes a reappearance... sounds odd. (But then what do I know

)

Jaba · Post by **Jaba** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:22 am

I assume you are fitting a separate gauge. If so the most convenient place to get the ignition switched 12v is from the panel lamp dimmer switch input side, connection 1 on the wiring diagram.
You can wire in the illumination here as well using the output connection no. 4 if you want it dimmable.
Earthing points are abundant, just screw it to any part of the bodywork.

BTW when you put that engine in make really sure that the fuel pipes and filter, if present, are empty. You will get smelly diesel leaking out during your journey otherwise.

DLM · Post by **DLM** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:08 pm

Was the oil coming down from from the back or front face of the sump? Were you using a home-made header tank or similar (a 2litre cut-off plastic drinks bottle with neoprene or plumber's thread tape around the screw-top section works well). One of these helps move the inevitable airlocks on a bit quicker.

My relatively uneducated guess is that there was an airlock in the vicinity of the head leading to a momentary steam-temperature hot-spot which defeated the head gasket or some other seal with a sudden burst of unaccustomed pressure . probably a one-off in the short term as there's no consistent leak now, though it perhaps bodes badly for the long-term . Feel free to shoot me down on this theory, anyone. If the head ever comes off, I'd expect a bit of steam-cleaning to be evident somewhere.

I'd get the temp gauge working before your next move - it's such a confidence booster and early warning of likely problems.

As you say the car's been running pretty hot - do the fans cut in now, and did they do so before the rad flush ? I'd expect them to have done so during the bleed operation with the car sitting there idling for a long period - and they should have been doing so beforehand if there was minimal rad flow.

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:20 pm

Thanks for replies.

The oil seems to have come down the back. I think you're right about the airlock DLM - it was such a sudden release of oil. I did have a home made header tank but it didn't really improve the situation.
I think I wasn't so careful on bleeding that time because I was just heating the coolant to add the Wynn's flush.

On the last proper bleed the fans came on ( I also fitted a new thermo switch).

Today there was no oil dripping though I hammered up and down the autobahn on various errands : good compression and power. It's strange that if the oil did force a path that its somehow sealed again?

The biggest issue today ( an issue a day!) was the leaking injector pump that can now be heard hissing slightly after a run. I just hope this seal doesn't give up completely somewhere between here and Geneva where I'm bound on Thursday.

Soon I'll have everything to repair these issues, just as long as the replacement parts haven't got issues.

I've already had the head off the TRD and if I have to do it again ( I hope not) at least I'm a bit experienced and I'll fit the new head that's sat in my barn in its original packing from Citroen. (Don't understand why someone would buy such an item and never use it, then give it away?)

A mechanic here said to me : that car is your teacher.
It helps at least to have two of everything for when one f**ks up while learning though!

DLM · Post by **DLM** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:36 am

Apologies if you've already been through or though through any of the following.

The biggest issue today (an issue a day!) was the leaking injector pump that can now be heard hissing slightly after a run. I just hope this seal doesn't give up completely somewhere between here and Geneva where I'm bound on Thursday.

I hope the pump on the engine you're collecting is in better shape. Lucas or Bosch pumps on your car/the lump you're collecting? Bosch last longer and are generally repairable (unlike Lucas) , though Lucas are worth getting the full life out of if fitted already and not in terminal decline.

Don't forget that different injectors and ancilliaries are specified dependent on the pump fitted (so a replacement pump might need parts from the new engine too if the hissing pump is not easily repairable). All things to add into the equation.

I once had a UK-registered BX, used by the previous owner to lug around vintage motorbikes on trailers, which had documentation of a pump recon/repair carried out in Switzerland. Hope you don't need to do something similar.

Glad to hear the fan switch is new & the fan is now cutting in as towing a load (particularly up steep inclines) is the application that Citroen specified as needing an extra fan kit - even if this was only to cover themselves against claims from the considerable number of people who used to lug a load behind their BX.

I also hope you have a good breadown cover package in place - plus a plan B (and plans C, D etc. as other possible solutions to the logistical jigsaw you've constructed).

I've already had the head off the TRD and if I have to do it again ( I hope not) at least I'm a bit experienced and I'll the new head that's sat in my barn in its original packing from Citroen. (Don't understand why someone would buy such an item and never use it, then give it away?)

As you say, I suspect you may find yourself taking head off again, sooner or later.

There was considerable (and sometimes justified) head gasket paranoia with the XUD engine at one time. It was often greatest among those owners who NEVER checked out their cooling systems - and from those maintainers who didn't appreciate it either. Of course the after-the-event warning light system doesn't help (Yellow=very probably cooked, Red = definitely cooked).

And of course quite a few people suffered from the sins and omissions of previous owners. Perhaps it's best to look at it in this light.

I once removed an XUD head for someone only to hear two years later that the owner still hadn't got around to fitting it to the ZX it was intended for. There are always more plans and good intentions than there is time and opportunity to carry them out....

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:05 am

David, thankyou very much for your thoughts.

The failing pump is a Bosch and the pump on the new engine is also a Bosch, from one year later. I can't vouch for its condition but the whole unit was carefully removed from a BX that had been rear-ended in the early 90s after having covered 78,000 miles. The Citroen garage that removed it had also maintained it, so I keep my fingers crossed.
I'm going to try to change the seals in the failing pump ( once the other one is fitted) following CitroXim's excellent web-site ( and advice) and I've got one I stuffed last year to practice on!

The TRD has actually got twin fans and a tow bar so perhaps it was used for towing a caravan in its life. As I've mentioned before it was Citroen maintained til old Wilhelm died aged 90 in 2005 - the 78000Km service was due on the Citroen service card! It was the next owner who abused it through lack of understanding.

I've got breakdown cover - last used on the M4 last summer when my Merc Bus spat out its oil - hope I won't need it.

As for the engine pick-up, I'm considering having it brought on a pallet by Spedition as this would be cheaper and certainly less hassle and as I got it in the first place for practically nothing. That only leaves Geneva and back - a mere 720kms - which I can't welch on - it being 'business.'

DLM · Post by **DLM** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:04 am

Methinks you're well up to speed! Apologies again for any statements of the obvious. I had a twin-fan set-up on my old 19TGD - my first diesel BX but one I was stupid enough to buy with a head gasket on the way out after noticing some of the warning signs but not acting on them. .

It was the next owner who abused it through lack of understanding.

Sounds familiar - that TGD, owned beforehand by a caravan-tower, had been very well-maintained over several years by my favourite Swansea Citroen specialists (run by a man with a a BX 16v).

Then it fell into the "care" of the previous owner's son, who was a mechanic elsewhere. He botched-up a head gasket repair and totally failed to address problems in the rest of the cooling system. After the full head skim and refitting) plus new water-pump and cooling system flush-though) it ran happily for another 45k+ in my ownership . Yes, I did fit a temp gauge too - which was then put into a subsequent TGD turbo.

With both a working twin fan system and a temperature gauge I found confidence levels increased markedly!

Sounds to me like a delivered engine would cause many fewer headaches if it's a relatively cheap option and the sender/carrier take proper care of it. Pity you can't try it out on-car before deciding which way to go.

Good luck, and I wish you a successful trip!