BX fan
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Mothman
Hi bud,Roverman wrote:Maybe worth trying some radflush before you plump for a new rad? Are they differnt to a 1.9D and a 1.6?
does this stuff actually work? Will have a go before the w/end or its a trip to the local scrappie. Not sure if BX rads differ that much but seem to think that a 1.9D would differ from a 1.6 petrol. However i am no expert on this. Mind you, got the rad out and back in 2 1/2 hours with a 6 mile trip to T Wells and back so impressed myself.
Andy
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DLM
- Our Trim Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 6:41 pm
- Location: Gosport, Hampshire, UK
- My Cars: Historically, lots of BX hatches/estates in the 90s/00s - 16/19i/17td/19d
Recent scruffy diesel n/a estate - "The Red Shed" - is no longer mine. - x 9
I don't think it's scrappie-time for your BX - not unless the bubble pattern seen during fill/bleeding was continual tiny/foamy streams - even then it's still fixable by someone prepared to put in the time/effort. Practically-minded BX owners generally do feel it's worth the effort for a car that gives such good utility, probably doesn't owe you anything, and doesn't have the over-complication of more modern motors - though I hardly need to stress that point to a moggy-owner! .
Sound BXs have been condemned for the sake of fairly minor minor cooling system problems - and I've helped save some as have several other forum members.
Full refill & bleed procedure is a bit long-winded and XUD-specific - but it's essential. I'll post a guide immediately after this post. It's straightforward stuff but does need to be done before drawing conclusions.
Flushing? A suspect rad can be crud-flushed off-car with the aid of baking powder - surprisingly effective. Whole-system flush is not a bad idea as such (full refill/bleed procedure equally important here ) - but that, or any other flush procedure won't make a 15-year-old rad into a new one (if that's what's on the car). This is true of any car but a known-good rad that flows freely is vital on an 19D BX.
A new rad certainly won't do any harm: but the whole system needs to be verified working properly - including thermostat, main hoses (which sometimes collapse internally as they age), and possibly waterpump - though this normally only suffers if everthing else has been terminally neglected and the system is pressurising beyond normal. Classic symptoms are that hoses remain rock-hard when cold, even after leaving the car overnight, and then releasing the filler-cap next morning vents considerable built-up pressure.
Thermostats weaken with age - and foul up too, but are cheap. Sound BXs have been condemned for the sake of a new one. A new stat gives confidence, and removes an unknown factor. They're specced to open at 88deg on post-87 models (older models are specced at 82deg ). If you've got the plastic thermostat housing (diesel filter on top of housing) then some suppliers may be more used to selling the part you need to Xantia owners/maintainers.
Radiator availability/choice : I think that last time this cropped up, a BX16/19 petrol rad was deemed OK for a 19 diesel - GSF only stock that one for more basic BXs nowadays. Plenty of alternative sources - haven't checked Eurocarparts or better still AEP (on ebay & through traditional means). AEP can seem expensive but stock Citroen or true OE parts. Ebay new-old-stock vendors can also be a source for a rad if you're careful about both the vendor and the manufacturer of the rad. Valeo was the OE manufacturer I think but may well not produce them any more.
Hose availability is sometimes patchy,and there are variants for the bottom hose. Some have a t-piece at the rad end of the hose - some don't. As usual, most hoses are expensive, but short-cuts don't apply here. Hopefully you don't need any.
Refill/bleed guide follows as advertised....
Sound BXs have been condemned for the sake of fairly minor minor cooling system problems - and I've helped save some as have several other forum members.
Full refill & bleed procedure is a bit long-winded and XUD-specific - but it's essential. I'll post a guide immediately after this post. It's straightforward stuff but does need to be done before drawing conclusions.
Flushing? A suspect rad can be crud-flushed off-car with the aid of baking powder - surprisingly effective. Whole-system flush is not a bad idea as such (full refill/bleed procedure equally important here ) - but that, or any other flush procedure won't make a 15-year-old rad into a new one (if that's what's on the car). This is true of any car but a known-good rad that flows freely is vital on an 19D BX.
A new rad certainly won't do any harm: but the whole system needs to be verified working properly - including thermostat, main hoses (which sometimes collapse internally as they age), and possibly waterpump - though this normally only suffers if everthing else has been terminally neglected and the system is pressurising beyond normal. Classic symptoms are that hoses remain rock-hard when cold, even after leaving the car overnight, and then releasing the filler-cap next morning vents considerable built-up pressure.
Thermostats weaken with age - and foul up too, but are cheap. Sound BXs have been condemned for the sake of a new one. A new stat gives confidence, and removes an unknown factor. They're specced to open at 88deg on post-87 models (older models are specced at 82deg ). If you've got the plastic thermostat housing (diesel filter on top of housing) then some suppliers may be more used to selling the part you need to Xantia owners/maintainers.
Radiator availability/choice : I think that last time this cropped up, a BX16/19 petrol rad was deemed OK for a 19 diesel - GSF only stock that one for more basic BXs nowadays. Plenty of alternative sources - haven't checked Eurocarparts or better still AEP (on ebay & through traditional means). AEP can seem expensive but stock Citroen or true OE parts. Ebay new-old-stock vendors can also be a source for a rad if you're careful about both the vendor and the manufacturer of the rad. Valeo was the OE manufacturer I think but may well not produce them any more.
Hose availability is sometimes patchy,and there are variants for the bottom hose. Some have a t-piece at the rad end of the hose - some don't. As usual, most hoses are expensive, but short-cuts don't apply here. Hopefully you don't need any.
Refill/bleed guide follows as advertised....
Back on two wheels and pedal power for the moment.
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DLM
- Our Trim Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 6:41 pm
- Location: Gosport, Hampshire, UK
- My Cars: Historically, lots of BX hatches/estates in the 90s/00s - 16/19i/17td/19d
Recent scruffy diesel n/a estate - "The Red Shed" - is no longer mine. - x 9
Here's a refill-bleed procedure for XUD engines without a header tank- i.e. where the filler cap is at one end of the radiator . It's been a while since I did one on a 19D but I was shown through this hands-on by a trusted Citroen/Peugeot mechanic and given refinements online on this forum and its predecessors. Amendments/comments welcome - I'm human so I will make mistakes and forget things over time. Pull me up on any points that are debatable or just plain wrong, please. No intention to be patronising to anyone.
Airlocks and hence hot/cold spots WILL occur unless the procedure is followed. Apologies if any or all of this is known already. Heater controls set to full - as described before.
(1) Make a home-made "header tank " - a 2-litre plastic drinks bottle. Cut off the base, remove the top and wrap some neoprene or plumbers tape around the screwtop thread - thick enough for a seal when pushed into the filler cap - and for it to stand upright even when filled.
(2) Park the car on a slope with the nose pointing up and at a slant so that the rad filler is at the highest point.
(3) Insert the bottle into the filler. Open the bleed screws.
(4) Fill (water until you know that the system's working properly). Try and keep the level well up towards the top of the bottle as you fill so that gravity's forcing the coolant through the system.
(5) Turn engine on as per normal once the system's seems full, but maintain that level high up in the bottle throughout. Close bleeds in bottom-up order, but not in too much of a hurry. The thermostat bleed is the highest-up in the system. Can't recall exactly where the thermo bleed is on late 19 diesels.
(6) Plenty of top-hose squeezing forces water through the rad. Full effect only comes once the thermostat opens and the top-hose becomes hot throughout its length, spreading rapidly through to the rad. Suspect the stat or top hose if full-blooded heat doesn't spread rapidly through the length of the top hose after it shows first signs of opening.
(7) Expect plenty of air bubbles to keep coming throughout the 20-30 minutes of running you may need before the fans should be expected to cut in. Continue to knead the top-hose carefully as much as should prove necessary.
(7) If there are no major bubble streams still emerging, with some water still in the header, turn off the engine, remove the header, and let the level to fall to the level of the overflow hole. Replace the filler cap and leave to cool. (Topup to full level again may be desirable once cool - can't remember. Advice/amendment, anyone?) .
(8) If all's well, the car can then be taken for a careful trip that'll bring it up to full operating temperature for a sustained period. Expect some loss of water from the filler cap area as the system self-corrects. Think of the filler cap as a one-way valve to compensate for any overfill or remaining air-bubbles at this time.
(9) Let the engine cool down, remove filler cap and top-up again as required.
Apologies for length of post - no real short-cuts here.
Airlocks and hence hot/cold spots WILL occur unless the procedure is followed. Apologies if any or all of this is known already. Heater controls set to full - as described before.
(1) Make a home-made "header tank " - a 2-litre plastic drinks bottle. Cut off the base, remove the top and wrap some neoprene or plumbers tape around the screwtop thread - thick enough for a seal when pushed into the filler cap - and for it to stand upright even when filled.
(2) Park the car on a slope with the nose pointing up and at a slant so that the rad filler is at the highest point.
(3) Insert the bottle into the filler. Open the bleed screws.
(4) Fill (water until you know that the system's working properly). Try and keep the level well up towards the top of the bottle as you fill so that gravity's forcing the coolant through the system.
(5) Turn engine on as per normal once the system's seems full, but maintain that level high up in the bottle throughout. Close bleeds in bottom-up order, but not in too much of a hurry. The thermostat bleed is the highest-up in the system. Can't recall exactly where the thermo bleed is on late 19 diesels.
(6) Plenty of top-hose squeezing forces water through the rad. Full effect only comes once the thermostat opens and the top-hose becomes hot throughout its length, spreading rapidly through to the rad. Suspect the stat or top hose if full-blooded heat doesn't spread rapidly through the length of the top hose after it shows first signs of opening.
(7) Expect plenty of air bubbles to keep coming throughout the 20-30 minutes of running you may need before the fans should be expected to cut in. Continue to knead the top-hose carefully as much as should prove necessary.
(7) If there are no major bubble streams still emerging, with some water still in the header, turn off the engine, remove the header, and let the level to fall to the level of the overflow hole. Replace the filler cap and leave to cool. (Topup to full level again may be desirable once cool - can't remember. Advice/amendment, anyone?) .
(8) If all's well, the car can then be taken for a careful trip that'll bring it up to full operating temperature for a sustained period. Expect some loss of water from the filler cap area as the system self-corrects. Think of the filler cap as a one-way valve to compensate for any overfill or remaining air-bubbles at this time.
(9) Let the engine cool down, remove filler cap and top-up again as required.
Apologies for length of post - no real short-cuts here.
Back on two wheels and pedal power for the moment.
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DLM
- Our Trim Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 6:41 pm
- Location: Gosport, Hampshire, UK
- My Cars: Historically, lots of BX hatches/estates in the 90s/00s - 16/19i/17td/19d
Recent scruffy diesel n/a estate - "The Red Shed" - is no longer mine. - x 9
Possibly, but only AFTER being checked through and edited/amended by someone who's done it more recently and more often.....should be made a sticky possibly for further reference.
I just happen to have some time on my hands at the moment so thought I'd bash it out as I remember it. Other versions, probably more complete, have definitely appeared on forums before - quite possibly this forum, on which the search facilities are often criminally under-used when advice is sought....
I didn't refer to other sources directly when writing for fear of plagiarising and unacknowledged use of material - which may possibly be available for non-commercial reference and/or use with the appropriate acknowledgements..
A link to any existing material elsewhere might have been more concise, but for once I couldn't stomach the searching, especially in these days of paid-for priority and the possibility of general manipulation of results by various parties on internet search engines.
Respect and thanks is due to all who have given me their advice, time and support on this kind of topic in the past. Hope I've got the essentials right.
Back on two wheels and pedal power for the moment.
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Mothman
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Mothman
Hi again,
i have gone and got a new thermostat and some rad flush but there are no instructions with the stuff. I suppose i just pour it into the rad, run the engine for a while and drain. Would it be better to leave it in the system for a while?
Will then over the w/end replace the thermostat. If this dosnt cure the coldspot after a propper coolant refill then its a new rad.
Andy
i have gone and got a new thermostat and some rad flush but there are no instructions with the stuff. I suppose i just pour it into the rad, run the engine for a while and drain. Would it be better to leave it in the system for a while?
Will then over the w/end replace the thermostat. If this dosnt cure the coldspot after a propper coolant refill then its a new rad.
Andy
-
DLM
- Our Trim Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 6:41 pm
- Location: Gosport, Hampshire, UK
- My Cars: Historically, lots of BX hatches/estates in the 90s/00s - 16/19i/17td/19d
Recent scruffy diesel n/a estate - "The Red Shed" - is no longer mine. - x 9
I'm afraid to say the odds are probably on a new rad - but at least you should know that everything else works properly once the parts you have bought are all fitted.
I've never used radflush on-car, myself. Could possibly be one of two types according to what I googled-up on the word radflush. Quite by coincidence, I found a thread on the HonestJohn forum that I contributed to just around the time I was grappling with a problem similar to yours in the first flush of BX DIY-ing.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=6309
Another general description is here, from an MG-Rover forum.
http://forums.mg-rover.org/archive/inde ... 60134.html
A combination of that advice and the refill/bleed procedure should do it. Remember these are instructions for flushing the whole system. You might as well do this - when was it last possibly done?
As you're ultimately changing the thermostat (be careful not to crack the plastic housing it fits into) you could have a quick practice at removing it and taking the advice of the very last post on the second website above (it into the block via the thermostat housing, or into the rad top hose). Advisability of this, anyone?
When emptying the radflush mixture and flushing out, you can back-hose through the block if the thermostat's out and the rad bottom hose is disconnected. This has the advantage of sending any dislodged crud on a downhill rather than uphill route. WAIT FOR THE BLOCK TO COOL THOROUGHLY BEFORE ANY HOSING THROUGH TO BACKFLUSH IT.
If hosing through the radiator again, flush both ways and obey the "Send the-Crud=Downhill" rule by inverting the radiator off-car before flushing bottom-hose to top hose.
Don't put the new 'stat in until after the radflush treatment is complete, nd you/re filling up "seriously" again.
I've never used radflush on-car, myself. Could possibly be one of two types according to what I googled-up on the word radflush. Quite by coincidence, I found a thread on the HonestJohn forum that I contributed to just around the time I was grappling with a problem similar to yours in the first flush of BX DIY-ing.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=6309
Another general description is here, from an MG-Rover forum.
http://forums.mg-rover.org/archive/inde ... 60134.html
A combination of that advice and the refill/bleed procedure should do it. Remember these are instructions for flushing the whole system. You might as well do this - when was it last possibly done?
As you're ultimately changing the thermostat (be careful not to crack the plastic housing it fits into) you could have a quick practice at removing it and taking the advice of the very last post on the second website above (it into the block via the thermostat housing, or into the rad top hose). Advisability of this, anyone?
When emptying the radflush mixture and flushing out, you can back-hose through the block if the thermostat's out and the rad bottom hose is disconnected. This has the advantage of sending any dislodged crud on a downhill rather than uphill route. WAIT FOR THE BLOCK TO COOL THOROUGHLY BEFORE ANY HOSING THROUGH TO BACKFLUSH IT.
If hosing through the radiator again, flush both ways and obey the "Send the-Crud=Downhill" rule by inverting the radiator off-car before flushing bottom-hose to top hose.
Don't put the new 'stat in until after the radflush treatment is complete, nd you/re filling up "seriously" again.
Back on two wheels and pedal power for the moment.
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Mothman
IVE DONE IT!!!!!!!! 
took out the thermostat, checked to see if it worked in boiling water, it did, put it back, put in some radflush and a load of horrible nasty rust coloured gunge came out, back flushed it all and topped up the water as instructed and the rad heats up with no cold spots. Also had to clean the fan connectors and that ran too for the first time since i bought her 3 years ago. Also found that the top hose has been badly worn by the plastic pipe from the airfilter and will blow at any time and will have to be replaced.
So all in all not a bad day in the life of my old BX. I will be on the lookout for a 2nd hand rad sometime but am feeling very pleased with myself.
I would just like to say how grateful i am to fellow forum members for offering fantastic advice in what to do and for taking the time to provide lengthy and spot on advice. The item on refilling the coolant in my mind should be marked as a 'sticky' as its such good advice.
Many thanks all.
Andy
took out the thermostat, checked to see if it worked in boiling water, it did, put it back, put in some radflush and a load of horrible nasty rust coloured gunge came out, back flushed it all and topped up the water as instructed and the rad heats up with no cold spots. Also had to clean the fan connectors and that ran too for the first time since i bought her 3 years ago. Also found that the top hose has been badly worn by the plastic pipe from the airfilter and will blow at any time and will have to be replaced.
So all in all not a bad day in the life of my old BX. I will be on the lookout for a 2nd hand rad sometime but am feeling very pleased with myself.
I would just like to say how grateful i am to fellow forum members for offering fantastic advice in what to do and for taking the time to provide lengthy and spot on advice. The item on refilling the coolant in my mind should be marked as a 'sticky' as its such good advice.
Many thanks all.
Andy
