The blown up ram - think i've cracked it!

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Vanny
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The blown up ram - think i've cracked it!

Post by Vanny » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:55 am

Thanks to Marty for finding the wood in the trees;

http://bxclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php ... hlight=ram

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So you'll remember after all the troubles i've had that i managed to blow up the power steering rack. Now having spoken to Mr Sheppard, we have come up with this rather clever thought. The only possible reason for the ram blowing up is if it had no return pressure path, ie no way to release the pressure.

This brings me to two thoughts, either the pinion is somehow very wrong and has blocked the output of the ram or there is a plumbing problem! Now i cant really get my head round how the pinion valve could be wrong, other than the seals being on the wrong way, but even if this was the case, having seen one off the rack i cant think of a way that it would become a locked out one way valve.

So after tom got me thinking about the plumbing, i had a thought! If the main inlet feed pipe and outlet from the ram where in the wrong way, that could seriously screw things up? I got to thinking that instead of there being a nice route to the reservoir from the ram, that there would infact be the entire resistance of the pump to get passed, and thus blowing out the ram!

So only two pipes in the wrong way is my suspision. Can anyone remember which the high pressure goes to, is it the top port on the pinion that is the inlet of the bottom??
Last edited by Vanny on Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

M

Post by M » Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:22 pm

http://bxclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php ... hlight=ram

With regards everything else you may as well be speaking Russian to me.

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Post by tom » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:20 pm

Problem is that this is a Hybrid of Xantia and BX bits. I suspect that somewhere in the translation from FDV to twin output pump, summat has become deranged. FWIW, I think you are on the right lines; I would start from the other end, so to speak and define the return path and see what you have screwed into it because we know that the feed has good pressure available!

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Post by Vanny » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:40 pm

having driven it for THREE YEARS without an FD or for that matter any steering related problems, i dont think the addition of the Xantia pump and disposal of the FDV has anything to do with it, at the end of the day the twin out pump effectively has an FDV inbuilt!


The ram has failed due to the force through the rack, ie the force of the sttering wheel, i dont think the LHM or pump pressure has anything substantial to do with it, other than the initial pumping up of the rack.


Hmmm, need to get the plumbing diagrams out if i can figure what swmbo has done with the BOL

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Post by jeremy » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:41 pm

These illustrations any good? Some other good pictures on that site - especially FDV's, pumps etc. Also some of Xantia and others.

http://citroeny.cz/servis/bxser/rizeni_2.gif

As a matter of interest does anyone know if a Xantia rear subframe (and /or mounts) will go into a BX to give passive rear wheel steer? I must print out the Xantia subfame pics from that site when I get home.

jeremy

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Post by Vanny » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:47 pm

Well over the last two days i've narrowed it down!

The piping is all okay! So too is the new ram. So that narrows it down quite squarely to the pinion valve!


Now to those who have sugested taking the pinion valve out in situ, i'm going to try following in your madness!

Hit two problems already! Firstly the pinch bolt thing on the top of the pinion is SERIOUSLY bent, so i'm gonna have to try drilling it out or cutting the bugger off with a hack saw, theres no way at all to get in there with a grinder :(

second problem, i cant actually get the heat shield to come out, its undone but i can't find a way to actually get it out! Perhaps removing the exhaust (AGAIN) but i'm not sure that will help!


However, with the new ram on, it does much the same thing, lets fluid in one way but not the other and thats mostly with new pipes at the back as well! Now as i see it you can stick the pinion valve back into the 'holder' anyway round as the PAS should add pressure to the direction you turn the wheels? Gonna sit and try get my head round it, but dont fancy my chances!

Having a day of rest tomorrow (revision) after having destroyed 1x metro and 1xBX this (long) weekend!

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Post by Vanny » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:42 pm

Bugger, tits, ass, biatch is all i have to say!


Finally think i've figured it out, and exactly what went wrong!
Basically i made the fook up of following the instructions on the Japanese site which Alan linked to. Now i'm sure someone mentioned that the site was wrong, and i thought i had copied the seal locations of the old pinion, but i guess not! The seal locations in the picture on the site are wrong (i have a second working pinion in front of me for comparison), and the way the seals are setup they are blocking all pressure being returned from the outer ram (which i think is the 'right turn ram') so it will load up when turned to the left then fall over! Not good!

Well i'm off to see if it can be fixed, at elast i know nothing is broken!

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Post by cavmad » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:48 pm

Good luck Vanny!
Vauxhall apologist.

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Post by Stewart (oily!) » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:24 pm

So you can only turn left Vanny :D :D :D glad you located it though its lonely being the only superbx on the road :D
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Post by AlanS » Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:50 am

I was the one who mentioned they are wrong which is why I suggested taking extra care when doing it to the point of taking a pic.
That's got me buggered how that site got it so wrong, because unless the car on the Jap site was some kind of special import, their cars are all RHD too. Only other explanation I can make is that perhaps they took the pics with the parts either just sitting anywhere or they somehow had a pinion other than the one that came out of the car they were supposedly working on...absolute mystery.


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Vanny
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Post by Vanny » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:00 pm

if you look closely one of the pics after the buggered up one has the seals in the CORRECT location! So it's just bloody absent mindedness on there part i think!

Either way i have a HUGE number of pics so i will write up a decent guide to doing it, including doing it with the engine in situ (which is erm, interesting!)


Just going home to see if the seal i moved is dead or not! No loss if its dead as i have another complete working pinion sat ready and waiting!

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Post by tom » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:18 pm

I'd just fit it as a matter of course. You may choose not to.

After all, it is a matter of a pinion.

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Post by AlanS » Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:21 pm

I realise yours is a diesel and not a 16V petrol, but I would strongly suggest you be sure to refit those heat shields as we came to the conclusion that the abscence of them (thank you Mr Citroen Specialist from Sydney) :cry: caused us a string of problems on my car, including burning the outer cover off the clutch cable and causing the clutch cable to break, cooked the seals out of the steering pinion causing them to leak, cooked all the wiring at the rear of the engine, damaged the firewall insulation and a pile of other things I keep finding. A few minutes work might save you a lot of quids down the track.


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Vanny
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Post by Vanny » Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:49 pm

Ha ha! I beat you too it Mr Smith! Not only did i refit ALL the heat shields (i have exactly the same ones as the 16v :D) but i replaced the one around the pinion with an almost brand shiney new one (complete with spring clip AND nut and bolt!)!

Even managed to get the exhaust back on with the minimum of swearing! Also figured out why the exhaust leaked so much, the union in the middle was 'broke' (for broke read, had been in an incident involving an inanimate object).


but bugger me if i actually got to drive it today!


Next job, hydraulic clutch :D

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Post by Stewart (oily!) » Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:19 am

Accelerator is the one on the right, brake in the middle, clutch on the left, remember Vanny :D
Merry Christmas :D
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