aftermarket alloy wheels

blink · Post by **blink** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:47 pm

Dear all,

I have a 1989 ciroen bx GTI and I am looking at buying aftermarket alloy wheels. I will keep my original wheels and refurbish them just in case I make up my mind in the future.

I would like to go for 195/50/15 tyres and 15 inch rims will i have any problems like arch rubbing?

Also,

Could you be so kind to suggest some new (but retro looking wheels) which you think would suit a bx?

My first preference is Azev type A
http://viprims.com/WheelDetail2.asp?Link=2117

second choice Lenso BSX:
http://www.potn.co.uk/lenso-bsx_c10_1_14_33716.htm

Thanks in advance

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:58 pm

Depends upon how good your rear arm bearings are. I'd personally stick to 14's upto a max of 5.5j or 6j with 185/60 tyres, that should hopefully avoid any rubbing etc...whilst also reducing your costs & the car will ride better than with larger alloys with 195's riding on low profiles.

Vanny · Post by **Vanny** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:16 pm

Wheel diameter makes little to no difference to rubbing, especially when dropping the profile and upping the width of tire. So a 195/50 R15 is very close to the standard 185/60 r14 in terms of overall width of tyre.

Equally 195mm tyre width is a standard fitment for the 16v, which has the same rear wheel arches as every other model, with a bit of GFRP stuck on top. This means there is little difference between the two tyre sizes. A quick sanity check will show the tyre will only be (at best) 5mm closer to the wheel arch, and you have a good 15mm or so to play with over 185's.

I have 205/40 R17's on mine, no problems. I've increased the distance to the wheel arch by clipping the bottom lip of the metal but only for peace of mind! I've run BX's with a great number of different rim and tyre combinations without any problems, though i wouldn't go past 205 tyre width!

Exactly how Mulley thinks costs would be reduced when 15" tyres are cheaper to begin with i'm not sure, these days most cars start with 15" and work up so tyre prices are cheaper as a result of bulk purchasing etc.

The car will ride no differently between 195/50 and 185/60 as there is little between the tyre wall heights, probably around an inch overall (you know, to take up the extra inch in rim size) equating to 6mm in wall height, thats nothing for a stiff tyre.

When picking rims, look for Ford Fitment and check the offset/ET as you might have to buy some spacers!

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:07 am

Not sure where you get your tyres from Vanny, 14's are cheaper than 15's in my experience when buying a decent tyre. As an example you can get either of the following:

Vredestein T-TRAC Si 185/60 R14 82T for £33.10

or these for a similar price, i know which one's would be on my car.

Infinity GL699 195/50 R15 82V for £33.50

The equivalent quality tyre would be:

Vredestein SPORTRAC 3 195/50 R15 82V for £38.40

Ok, only a fiver more expensive, but every little helps, especially when there is no real benefit.

The only downside i can see to trying to spec 14 inch alloys which are aftermarket, is that there arent that many compared to 15's, so depending upon what design you want, then perhaps the 15's with that tyre profile may be your best bet afterall??

Vanny · Post by **Vanny** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:15 am

I get my tyres from Costco or a reputale local company. I also only buy decent top of the range tyres.

And to qualify, the big manufacturers no longer make there premium tyres in 14" sizes. Specifically Michelin no longer make Exalto/Primacy in 14" diameter, having spoken to the head office in Manchester this is because there is no demand for the smaller tyres.

Vredetein i do not consider to be a premium brand. I will only fit premium brand tyres to my car (partly on value, partly on safety). Its possible that the smaller sizes can be had for less money if your buying cheaper brand tyres, but probably because they are not made for the main European market.

The comparisons drawn between the two Vredestein tyres are clearly unfair as they are different models. Its great that your trying to show a difference in price that supports your argument, but you should be careful to make fair comparisons on like for like products. (Something you wont be able to do with Michelin Exaltos!)

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:08 pm

Unfortunately they didnt do the t-track in the larger low profile size, otherwise i would have quoted it.

I dont believe anywhere on this thread was there a mention of premium tyres until you brought it up. Whats the point in spending £70 on a premium top of the range tyre for a bx?? When something at less than half the price is just as good imho.

Anyway's getting back to what the thread was actually on about, Blink, as you can see there are differing viewpoints on alloy & tyre sizes, what do you think you'll be going for?

Vanny · Post by **Vanny** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:40 pm

Your welcome to your own view on tyres, but there are good tyres and bad tyres, and i like to protect my safety.

The general issue however is that you've posted about alloys of equal size to standard fitment providing sub standard ride quality and increased cost which is simply not true, and i doubt based on any personal experience. Its a technical matter which you appear to have little understanding.

Matt H · Post by **Matt H** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:05 pm

I have to agree with Vanny on this... 15" alloys make little or no difference in ride quality, and the choice of 195/60/14 V rated tyres for the 16v is pitiful. I'm seriously considering upgrading to 15" alloys myself.

Vanny · Post by **Vanny** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:26 pm

Biggest problem i find with after market alloys is finding something that isn't totally garrish (sp), there are a lot of styles, but to be honest i rather like the original 16v alloys. He says knowing he's swapped to 17" rims again!

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:47 pm

You could well by right Vanny about my technical knowledge on this subject, i was offering a different viewpoint which doesnt negate what i've said. Tyres from different brands have different compounds, tread patterns & pressures so there are also those factors to take into account. So i doubt whether you would be classed as an expert either taking all the variables into consideration.

A lot of members on here recommend Uniroyal which i dont believe would be classed as a premium brand under your interpretation.

You also infer that i'm risking myself, & anyone else by not purchasing the sort of premium tyres that you would have chosen, i dont appreciate that. I've specifically chosen tyres which i've researched & have purchased normally on wet weather performance being the most important criteria. What was interesting was the the price & brand of tyre didnt mean that the more you spent the better they were, thats why i went for those one's.

If members feel they get better results going with larger alloys with lower profile tyres, premium or otherwise, then i'm certainly not going to be saying they are wrong, as they are driving their car daily & will be in a position to comment if they've tried different one's.

I also have a set of winter tyres, are they the best one's out there, no idea as i havent driven a bx with anything other than the one's i've got. They certainly seem pretty good, again a non premium brand called Debica, which are made by Goodyear. All i can say is that whilst the rest of Britain drives at 15mph on snowy ground i can comfortably drive along at 50mph, so all those lovely premium branded low profile tyres are of no use.

Vanny · Post by **Vanny** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:25 pm

Hang about i said MY safety, thats factoring in my driving style, my driving terrain, typical and extreme loads, and the power provided by the D6C.

I also didnt suggest that i was a tyre expert, i suggested i had a better experience of what alloys fit and what doesn't on a BX, unless i'm missing something that is! My experience comes from working for a BX racing team, repairing into the hundreds of BX's (on a herd of different tyres and rims), watching people get the selection very wrong track side, and having built and competed in a single seat racing with around 500bhp/ton.

I didn't recommend Uniroyal, though i wouldn't class them as premium. The biggest premium differences are in the manufacture and not the use, high cost tyres usually have longer and better development (budget tyres are usually copies of premiums, which is no bad thing), they have better manufacturing standards having been made in the EU under EU laws (rather than developing countries where quality checks can often be reduced or cut completely), they have better support allowing feedback into the manufacturing process, they have main dealer support which allows for bigger volume sales and eventually more money for development. Its similar for most premium products, especially in the automotive world. How often do copied parts not quite fit correctly in comparison to dealer supplied parts made to specification.

The diameter of the rim the rubber is bolted to makes little to no difference on the tyre performance, lower profile can often mean greater perfromance under the right loads than a high walled tyre (high speed cornering), while 40 profile tyres are useless for trying to get onto a kerb without killing the rim. But unless i am mistaken your fighting the clause for 185/60 r14's being the only practical option?

Debica ar to Goodyear what Kumho are to Michelin, they are old profile/model tyres remanufactured to a budget. There is no development cost becuase they use old tooling, and hence cost less. Pretty good recycling really. At least they are made to a quality though!

As for 50mph on snow, try stopping! A little known fact i guess, but i currently work as a test driver, spent a month driving on snow/ice/gravel roads in a range of vehicles, and at 50mph on proper snow (ie not in the UK) you havent much hope of stopping in an emergency. Less of a problem when the next town is 4 hours away and your on a practically straight road with drivers infinately better than you, but ya dont tend to get that in the UK!

Tell you what though, this is a better debate about tyres than the Nitrogen rant!

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:56 pm

I agree, there is no way you can get all of the speed off when driving at higher speeds on snow. But you can take most of your speed off if you have to, but seeing as i'm paying attention to the road & the traffic whilst looking ahead for trouble, i weighed up the risks & concluded no other idiots will try & copy me.

But lo & behold, i saw a couple of cars on the dual carriageway pull out of the inside lane thinking if that old banger can go at that speed so can i. Needless to say they got upto my speed & then slowed right down again, i guarantee they wont have realised i had winter tyres for the job

Smooth on the steering, throttle & brakes, infact my avatar shows how deep the snow was that i drove in, the only other cars that ventured off road were those crazy 4x4 folk

Back to the alloys & tyres, yes you would know more about which alloys would or wouldnt fit the bx, as my experience is limited to steelies, 5.5 & 6j speedlines.

Racing experience is quite a different beast to normal road driving surely, so just because you can get track info on tyres, surely this is irrelevant for road use as one is an extreme, whereas the other use is normal?

Apologies about the safety thing, it just read like you were insinuating something.

Never said you recommended Uniroyal, just that they do seem to have a loyal following with members who own valvers & who state they wouldnt ever change to anything else.

I must admit, i'm not a fan of michelin's, they are long lasting, but grip in the wet is hopeless, ok in the dry & they were fitted to a Clio sport & my bx Gti, both had the same performance even though they were different models & specs, they certainly werent worth £60+ each.

I wasnt fighting the cause for the 185/60 r14's, its just that is one of the specs that Citroen recommends for the bx & it seems fine to me, so unless you want to change your alloys to r15's or more, i just dont personally see the point. But i can understand if someone does want to fit a larger wheel with a lower profile, but what is the benefit apart from cosmetic?

You raise an interesting point about manufacturing standards. Are you meaning that the premium branded tyres have more modern tread patterns & also have more sophisticated design structure within the carcass as well as the compounds used in the rubber? Having visually looked at tyres, i can't spot anything obvious or is it all hidden as per above except the tread pattern?

Kitch · Post by **Kitch** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:53 am

With regards the ride quality debate, my experience has been the bigger the wheel, the worse the ride.

The difference between standard 16v 14's and some 15in rims with 196/50/15 tyres is noticable. The ride was more jittery, probably due to the lower profile tyre giving less of a cushion over bumps.

As far as brands goes, Vredestien are made in the Netherlands in the same factory of the budget brand Event, who themselves are mostly owned by Continental.
All tyres are practically the same these days, because all the bigger brand companys make them with the same rubber and designs. Otherwise they wouldn't have a share of the lower end of the market.

Vanny · Post by **Vanny** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:30 am

196, interesting size. Kitch have you read all the thread, the debate is generally about going from 185/60 to 195/50 for which the profile might be different, but the actual wall height will be much the same (5mm). Do you think that would be the cause?

I can't say i have ever compared like for like tyres of the two sizes, but i've not noticed any difference (which stands to reason when the wall height is so short). Equally, going down to 205/40's there is a huge difference in wall height, and a serious drop in comfort, i wonder if the solution is comfort spheres? Still 205/40 R17's give more comfort than a Mk2 Focus on standard alloys!

Michelin Energy last for ever for a reason, they are made of super tough rubber, the reason the Mk1's where so terrible in the wet. Mk2's are better and i think they offer a very good value for money considering there longevity. But the arse of a BX is so light, i found i could easily slide the back out without any sort of trouble. On the flip side, the 185/60R14 Exalto's where brilliant on the BX in all weather (and non too shabby in deep mud), just a shame Michelin stopped making them due to volume!

I wouldn't assume that because more money had been spent on development that a tyre is guaranteed to be better. There are plenty of examples where this is not the case (such as the Firestone tyres in the late 90's that used to implode for no reason at all). The tread patterns are usually different on newer models, noticeable if you compare an Energy 1 tyre against an Energy 2 tyre, but often it is the compound that makes the change. Remember in cornering the tyre is heavily deformed, and you can not see how the tyre deforms when it is on a stationary car or on the shelf. There is potential for two tyres to look identical, but have very very different performance. Equally, new tyres are designed for new cars with different loadings and performance requirements than the humble BX, typically newer tyres are harder for longer life and better fuel economy, tyres like the Michelin Energy, Pirelli P6000 and the Continental version, usually fitted to 1.6litre and below vehicles because they give better economy, not performance!

Along with stiffer compounds i know there is more tendency to stiffen sidewalls as well, something you cant see or feel until a) the tyre is flat b)its under load.

Larger wheels will often alloy for a wider selection of types (thinking about alloys here) and widths. As proven by the numbers it is possible to increase rim size and maintain the same rolling radius while loosing little from the side wall. In the general scheme of things manufactures now tend to have a one tyre fits all approach (go have a look at a show room of new Fords), they have bigger brakes (because the cars are heavier) and so need bigger rims to get over the calipers. Newer cars also have more clearance (for a host of reasons) and one way to achieve this is bigger rims. And then there is the biggest overriding factor, styling. There are lots of good reasons for the industry trend towards bigger rims (and rolling area), but few reasons for changing on a BX.

Have you had a look around for 14" alloys with ford fitment? they seem rather scarce to ,me!

Philip Chidlow · Post by **Philip Chidlow** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:32 am

A thoroughly interesting discussion. Hats off to all who have devoted time and effort in debating this.

As far as I am concerned a good (recent) set of Michelin Energy tyres on the GTi I have is fine by me!

One thing - not necessarily relating to the above - does the BX warrant wider rims purely because of fashion? Surely (for daily drivers) the 14" original is in keeping with the design, otherwise it runs the risk of looking chav'd? OK a 16v could be expected to wear larger, 'sportier' rims, but even then are we really dealing too much with extreme, theoretical limits here? If someone popped a set of 15" P6000's on my GTi would I appreciate the change? Just wonderin'

Good stuff though - or rather good forum stuff.