BX 14 - a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing

BX Tech talk
citronut
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Post by citronut »

ps.
i looked on service citroen's site at BX's, and they show a few with monopoint injection, not that i remember seeing any in the flesh, i was not sure what country's they coverd

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
Kitch
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Post by Kitch »

jonathan_dyane wrote:
Way2go wrote:You cannot run a Cat with a Carb as it would quickly kill it! :wink:
Not for want of trying; Lada Nissan and I believe Rover all, for a time, sold cars with a carb and a cat.

I believe getting an MOT with these (mercifully) rare beasts could be something of a challenge.
And the 1990 Daihatsu Charade 1.3!
One third of a three-spoke BX columnist team for the Citroenian magazine.

CCC BX registrar: The national BX register - click to submit a car!

1983(A) 16TRS (Rouge Valleunga)
1990(H) 16Valve (Rouge Furio)
Mike Holdstock
Confirmed BX'er
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:12 pm
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re injection etc on BX14

Post by Mike Holdstock »

From the appendix ("Exhaust emission claning with catalysator, Citr BX 14 Motor family G-KDZ-89) to the handbook of the BX14RE:

(rough translation)

"Emission control devises

Injection system of BOSCH MONPOINT type with one electromagnetic injector for all 4 cylinders. A computer directs/manages both the injector system as well as the following (cleaning) equipment:

A SYSTEM FOR REGULATION OF THE RICHNESS OF THE FUEL MIXTURE, consisting of a catalysator with a LAMBDA probe which is placed in the exhaust system:
the catalyser oxides the poisonous gases from the motor and turns
- CO to CO2
- HC to CO2 + H2O
- NOX to N + O

The LAMBDA probe sends information about the "richness" of the exhaust to the injections systems computer so that the mixture is constantly adjusted for maximal efficiency in the motor and the catalyser.

A SYSTEM FOR CLOSED FUEL TANK VENTILATION, prevents petrol fumes (HC) from escaping to the open air. The tank ventilation is passed through a container (so called "canister") which contains a filter with activated carbon, which catches/collects HC particles when the motor is turned off. When the motor is running the computer ensures that an electronic valve is opened so that the fuel fumes are instead sucked into the inlet manifold. As a result air is simultaneously sucked in trough the canister's active carbon filter and cleans this."

Motor otherwise:
G-KDZ-89; Type KDZ (TU 3M); b/s 75/77; 1360 cm2; Power 58kW, (80 hp); comp 8.8/1; bal bla; idle 850 +/- 50; and "The motor is equipped with an enclosed crankcase".

If you want to view a wealth of extra pipes I will get some pictures up.
The LAMBDA is about an inch down from the manifold/exhaust pipe joint.

Currently I am getting intermittantly
EITHER
(from warm start usually): easy start, good idle speed almost even, and very good running
OR
very low lumpy idle speed, a horrible rattling sound that appears to be coming from the cat, white smole from the exhaust, feels like it is runningon three½ cylinders

Ive:
had the distributor off and taken away a little oxidisation - didn't seem to do much;
been pumping WD40 into the inlets of the electro/magnetic valve that is in the distrib vacuuil unit and the carb (it could have got royally sooty during many months of no use), also gently poked apipe cleaner in everything.

Maybe it is just in need of time to clean itself through, but I do wonder about this cold star/low and lumpy idle. Shouldn't something be controlling this? ? idle motor ? Can idle motors get trunky?

Any thoughts and advise much appreciated.

Have a nice weekend

Mike
OWNS a BX19i 1990 tri with only 110k km on the clock and no rust
OWNS a life-threatened BX16i and delighted with it (but poor relationship with test station)
HAS HAD 89 BX14iRE (dead)
HAS HAD 88 BX19GtI (dead)
HAD 89 BX14RE which was still motoring very well at 280.000km when there was too much rust (gone)
HAD about 5 GS (first 1978) in the 70's, 80's and 90's, loved them, would dearly have one again.
HAD a DS Break - Succumbed to the rust of ages..
citronut
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Post by citronut »

if it has an idle stepper motor these do play up, to check/prove if its at fault remove clean with carb cleaner and refit, this should prove either way, but it usualy will eventuarly kill the stepper motor completley, in my experiance,

but not before its proved the point


regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
Mike Holdstock
Confirmed BX'er
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:12 pm
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Post by Mike Holdstock »

Thanks Malcolm

Ok, so it looks like replace anyway in the long run, since the test is destructive.
Are we looking at the object at
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... =WDVW&rd=1

or could you point me to some other source of supply? Do Citroen have them or is there some UK Alladins Cave of (alla) things BX at a much lower price?
I have checked the Sw national breakers register but none have an idle motor for a 14, although there are quite a few on offer for 16 and 19. I am not sure they are the same, and looking at the 19 8v doesn't help much!

State of the patient this morning is easy start from cold with good idle speed and after initial (normal/overnight) smoke plume no major smoke.
I do believe in allowing these things to work their way through the system.

Mike[/b]
OWNS a BX19i 1990 tri with only 110k km on the clock and no rust
OWNS a life-threatened BX16i and delighted with it (but poor relationship with test station)
HAS HAD 89 BX14iRE (dead)
HAS HAD 88 BX19GtI (dead)
HAD 89 BX14RE which was still motoring very well at 280.000km when there was too much rust (gone)
HAD about 5 GS (first 1978) in the 70's, 80's and 90's, loved them, would dearly have one again.
HAD a DS Break - Succumbed to the rust of ages..
citronut
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:55 am
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Post by citronut »

the main point on giveing it a clean with carb cleaner first, is just to try and prove if this is at fault,

this unit is known to break down as it becomes clogged up with carbon deposits,

if you end up requireing a new unit try this company, although the price in you link seems about right

http://www.fpuk.co.uk/main/index.asp

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
Mike Holdstock
Confirmed BX'er
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:12 pm
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Post by Mike Holdstock »

Thanks Malcolm

Weather prioritizes other things just now, will try to pick up some carb cleaner tomorrow, but I haven't seen it on the shelves of my motor DIY here yet. Does it have any other name? Are we looking for an oil-based product or a detergent-like one?

Isn't it good enough with WD40? :lol:

Mike
OWNS a BX19i 1990 tri with only 110k km on the clock and no rust
OWNS a life-threatened BX16i and delighted with it (but poor relationship with test station)
HAS HAD 89 BX14iRE (dead)
HAS HAD 88 BX19GtI (dead)
HAD 89 BX14RE which was still motoring very well at 280.000km when there was too much rust (gone)
HAD about 5 GS (first 1978) in the 70's, 80's and 90's, loved them, would dearly have one again.
HAD a DS Break - Succumbed to the rust of ages..
citronut
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:55 am
Location: EAST SUSSEX UK
x 1

Post by citronut »

no Mike carb cleaner is solvent based and is highly flamable,

and im sure any good motor factors will sell it,

perhaps they have it behind the counter just in case the glue snifers get hold of it TEA HE, or is the high man,

and im not a WD40 fan as i dont belive it is all its cracked up to be,


regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
Mike Holdstock
Confirmed BX'er
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:12 pm
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Post by Mike Holdstock »

Thanks

I'll go and sniff around :D

Mike
OWNS a BX19i 1990 tri with only 110k km on the clock and no rust
OWNS a life-threatened BX16i and delighted with it (but poor relationship with test station)
HAS HAD 89 BX14iRE (dead)
HAS HAD 88 BX19GtI (dead)
HAD 89 BX14RE which was still motoring very well at 280.000km when there was too much rust (gone)
HAD about 5 GS (first 1978) in the 70's, 80's and 90's, loved them, would dearly have one again.
HAD a DS Break - Succumbed to the rust of ages..
Mike Holdstock
Confirmed BX'er
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:12 pm
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Post by Mike Holdstock »

Sorry about the real dumn question, but this will be a first time for me again:

any extra tools needed or do I just extract said idle motor and dunk it in the fluid (old tooth brushes...)

anything to avoid in extraction? Haynes is silent on this motor, as far as I can see.

BTW does the Forum know about the almost complete version of Haynes at:
http://cx.podolsk.ru/bx/docum/haynes/ ?

Mike
OWNS a BX19i 1990 tri with only 110k km on the clock and no rust
OWNS a life-threatened BX16i and delighted with it (but poor relationship with test station)
HAS HAD 89 BX14iRE (dead)
HAS HAD 88 BX19GtI (dead)
HAD 89 BX14RE which was still motoring very well at 280.000km when there was too much rust (gone)
HAD about 5 GS (first 1978) in the 70's, 80's and 90's, loved them, would dearly have one again.
HAD a DS Break - Succumbed to the rust of ages..
citronut
Over 2k
Posts: 2781
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:55 am
Location: EAST SUSSEX UK
x 1

Post by citronut »

carb cleaner is an airasole can, but what i usualy do is spray a load into the plastic lid, them place the tip end of the stteper motor into that and leave to soak, before refitting it give it a blast with compresed air

dont go pocking things up inside as its very delicate

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
Mike Holdstock
Confirmed BX'er
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:12 pm
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Post by Mike Holdstock »

I'll keep an adult around in case I get into trouble, and to read the instructions line by line,
especially the bit about not pocking with it
and to keep their fingers crossed

I get the picture.

Now to see if Swedish motor factors rise to the challenge. I cant find anything in the catalogues. There is a lot of stuff you can get in Uk which is not around in Swe, H&S possiby causing problems.
QUICKCLEAN ?
100% evaporating INDUSTRIAL CLEANER ?
(both of which are avalable as aerosols)

Does the Forum have any opinions about the necessity of regular use of proprietry injector cleaners which get added to the petrol? I doubt the injector has had any attention throughout its 120000 miles.

Thanks


Mike
OWNS a BX19i 1990 tri with only 110k km on the clock and no rust
OWNS a life-threatened BX16i and delighted with it (but poor relationship with test station)
HAS HAD 89 BX14iRE (dead)
HAS HAD 88 BX19GtI (dead)
HAD 89 BX14RE which was still motoring very well at 280.000km when there was too much rust (gone)
HAD about 5 GS (first 1978) in the 70's, 80's and 90's, loved them, would dearly have one again.
HAD a DS Break - Succumbed to the rust of ages..
citronut
Over 2k
Posts: 2781
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:55 am
Location: EAST SUSSEX UK
x 1

Post by citronut »

Mike wrote
"especially the bit about not pocking with it "

no Mike not the airasol i was refering to the stteper motor TEA HE,

can you still purchase celulous thinners in SWEEDEN,
as that should do the same job

a disesl component technician/reconditioner told me he dose not like addatives as he belives them to be abrasive

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
Mike Holdstock
Confirmed BX'er
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:12 pm
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Post by Mike Holdstock »

....cellulose thinner as in (spray) paint thinner ?

Thats still around, even in the land of social engineering and featherbedding.

I have also heard that injector cleaners (and other petrol additives, which are here used a lot in the winter / minus 20 / to avoid ice in the carb) can be addictive i.e. once a motor has developed a taste for it tends to need it all the time. The local goo contains ethanol, isapropanol and "ketonol" which, it claims, induction manifold clean and avoids ice in carb and injoectors.

Mike
OWNS a BX19i 1990 tri with only 110k km on the clock and no rust
OWNS a life-threatened BX16i and delighted with it (but poor relationship with test station)
HAS HAD 89 BX14iRE (dead)
HAS HAD 88 BX19GtI (dead)
HAD 89 BX14RE which was still motoring very well at 280.000km when there was too much rust (gone)
HAD about 5 GS (first 1978) in the 70's, 80's and 90's, loved them, would dearly have one again.
HAD a DS Break - Succumbed to the rust of ages..
citronut
Over 2k
Posts: 2781
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:55 am
Location: EAST SUSSEX UK
x 1

Post by citronut »

i wouldnt use anything which might have any oil content in for cleaning the stteper motor,
as all you need to do break down the carbon deposits which may have built up in the end, which can cause it to have problems moveing quickly and smoothly,

as it is ment to be able to make very fine,quick and precise movements

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
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