Starter circuit?

rob-81 · Post by **rob-81** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:13 pm

Hi. I have an annoying problem on my TZD turbo. I got the car a week ago from a member of this forum. I bought it knowing that ocassionally it would not turn over on the key and sometimes needed a couple of tries. The old owner had investigated this and has tested the starter solenoid (and found no fault) and stated that he beloved the ignition switch was a bit sticky.

Since I've had the car, it has needed a couple of goes on a few ocassions to start and today, refused to start at all. I've had a spare ingition switch in the boot and assuming that was the fault, swapped them over. Even with the new switch, it still refused to start. No other obvious wiring fault was apparent but I was limited by having no tools with me and being in my work clothes (didn't want to get too dirty). I was all set to call the recovery people and thought I would just reinstate the wiring to the old switch before they calling them (didn't really want the car wired up to second ignition switch when they arrived - it may look a bit dodgy!). Having reinstated the wiring to the old switch, I tried it again a couple of times and the bloody thing started! I bought it in the full knowledge of a current starting fault and wigh the understanding that a 180k, 18 year old BX will have some issues! Any ideas where to look for a fault? The old owner believes the starter solenoid is not at fault, it seems the switch is ok too. Anything else spring to mind?

Finally, I want to make clear that this post is no way a negative reflection on the previous owner of the car. He's top bloke and I'm delighted with the car. Also, apologies for any spelling/grammer mistakes. I've typed this on my phone and can't easliy review what I've written.

Thanks, Rob

rob-81 · Post by **rob-81** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:15 pm

"I bought it in the full knowledge of a current starting fault and wigh the understanding that a 180k, 18 year old BX will have some issues!"

spot the mistake! This sentence should be in the final paragraph! Bloody iPhone!!

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:26 pm

Does it just make a single click when you try to start?

Our last BX auto did this from the day we had it until the day before it departed. I'd changed the ignition switch and the starter motor, but no difference.

Then the day before it went, I was cleaning out the engine compartment and fitting a new air filter when I noticed a relay sat under the air filter housing. It looked a bit mouldy so I fitted a replacement, hey presto problem cured!

citronut · Post by **citronut** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

next time it fails to start try just wigleing the solanoid terminal, thats the small spade on the solanoid its self,

regards malcolm

rob-81 · Post by **rob-81** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:12 pm

Thanks Malcolm. Hopefully next time will be in a less inconvenient spot!!l

Linegeist · Post by **Linegeist** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:15 pm

I had a Rover P6 with this problem, and it defied all attempts to figure it out.

Eventually, I wired in a simple push switch direct to the small terminal on the starter solenoid, and installed it on the dashboard. This simply bypassed the problem in its entirety. It also gave the car a rather period feel when starting - sort've just one step removed from a bent handle at the front.

rob-81 · Post by **rob-81** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:00 pm

I came across that possible solution when searching the forums for answers. I will keep it in mind, nothing more annoying or frustrating that in intermittant starting fault!

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:36 pm

Next time it happens try using a screwdriver (or house key if you're stuck) to short power across from the big terminal on the starter motor to the small lucar connection. If it doesn't start with this, the problem must be either the starter or the battery leads/earth connection, whereas if this is a foolproof means of starting the problem is obviously elsewhere.

Do make sure it's out of gear first though...

Linegeist · Post by **Linegeist** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:42 pm

jonathan_dyane wrote:Next time it happens try using a screwdriver (or house key if you're stuck) to short power across from the big terminal on the starter motor to the small lucar connection. If it doesn't start with this, the problem must be either the starter or the battery leads/earth connection, whereas if this is a foolproof means of starting the problem is obviously elsewhere.

Do make sure it's out of gear first though...

Heh, heh, heh!

I saw a mechanic do this once when I was an apprentice, on a Cresta that had been towed in from a customer's home as a non-starter.

The starter had shorted out internally and, when he bunged a small screwdriver across said terminals, his screwdriver vapourised in a shower of sparks and hideous oaths.

rob-81 · Post by **rob-81** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:43 pm

Fantastic tip. Thanks johnathan!

Mike E (uk) · Post by **Mike E (uk)** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:57 pm

I agree that the connection to the solonid is worth wiggling/replacing.

Also worth considering fitting a relay, so the key switch powers the relay, and the relay connects the solonoid directly to the battery.

The key switches wear, and there is a significant length of wire from the battery, to the switch and back to the solonoid.

The voltage on the terminal is then less than it should be.

This works well on my BX.

Mike

RxBX · Post by **RxBX** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:18 pm

Hi Rob,
It might be worth reading thro' these old threads which Mike (above), others and I have already covered Re:- starting failures, checks and fixes including the link to the relay mod as Mike has mentioned !
Threads:- #ONE, #TWO and there was a 'Sticky' which has now moved to the TECHNICAL FAQ , I hope they may be of help

citronut · Post by **citronut** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:54 pm

one test you can do to aliminate the circuite between the ignition switch and the solonoid, is get a length of wire with a femail lucar terminal on one end, pull the conector off of the solonoid conect the length of wire ion its place and making sure its out of gear touch the other end of the wire to the posative terminal on the battery,

if she starts it aint the starter or solonoid,

regards malcolm

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:42 am

citronut wrote:one test you can do to aliminate the circuite between the ignition switch and the solonoid, is get a length of wire with a femail lucar terminal on one end, pull the conector off of the solonoid conect the length of wire ion its place and making sure its out of gear touch the other end of the wire to the posative terminal on the battery,

if she starts it aint the starter or solonoid,

regards malcolm

This in essence achieves the same as my suggestion above, however despite it appearing more sensible personally I would not advocate this as it will cause a spark when you touch the wire to the battery terminal. Creating sparks next to lead-acid batteries is a bad idea because in certain conditions (such as if the alternator was overcharging causing the battery to vent hydrogen gas) an explosion may result. Unlikely, but quite possible.

If you wish to use a wire then, I would suggest attaching it to the +ve battery terminal then flashing it to the lucar connection on the starter so as to have the spark away from the battery. This however carries the attendant risk of accidentally earthing the wire en-route to the starter causing sparkage, so I do think the screwdriver method is of merit, or, if you want to be really flash you could rig up a temporary additional wire betwixt starter and battery complete with under-bonnet push button for when she won't go. As ever however, there is the danger if you make a bodge really good that it becomes a permanent feature...

citronut · Post by **citronut** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:27 am

Johnathan wrote
"Creating sparks next to lead-acid batteries is a bad idea because in certain conditions (such as if the alternator was overcharging causing the battery to vent hydrogen gas) an explosion may result. "

i spose there is that danger jonathan,

so as you sudgest with conect to the battery first, then if you had an insulated femail lucar terminal on the other end, this should eliminate the risk of flashing the wire on route to the solanoid terminal,

regards malcolm