I have a BX 17 TZD with worsening cooling system problems. The underlying problem seems to be an increasing amount of compression leaking into the cooling system causing regular bubbles and exhaust gases visible in expansion tank. The extra pressure seems to have had the effect of finding weak points in the cooling system to burst through. A couple weeks ago the garage replaced a hose (would have done it myself but very inaccessible and cold weather!) and thermostat, which was found to be buggered. However that same night the top of the radiator distorted and dramatically bent it's top about 3 inches towards the engine! Remarkably it didn't spring a leak.
(I should explain at this point that in a particularly tired state last summer, while topping up the oil and water I did manage to pour about a cupful of oil into the cooling system before I realised what I was doing. About a month ago I noticed there was still a bit of oil in the system so I added washing-up liquid, which I now realise I shouldn't have because of the bubbles causing extra pressure. At this point I thought all my problems were down to the washing-up liquid, so thoroughly flushed out the system.)
The next leak seemed to be coming from the 'flange' which bolts to the engine beneath the water pump to which about 4 hoses are fixed to. I managed to get one on eBay and was surprised to find it was made of black plastic. However, the garage doesn't reckon this is the problem, and they think it's a crack in the cylinder block (but then they did once diagnose what turned out to be a breaking clutch pedal as a failed clutch!) . So yesterday I tried K-seal, hoping it could deal with any cracked block, but unfortunately it didn't help at all.
I had a look under the car while it was leaking, and it does seem to be coming from this flange, or possibly one of the hoses attached to it, and, because it's plastic, this might explain why the K-seal hadn't worked. It's a particular kind of leak which only occurs when the engine reaches a certain temperature/cooling system pressure - then it becomes quite rapid, leaking about a litre a minute, with accompanying hissing noise and steam/exhaust.
I had a new head gasket 2 years ago when a replacement head (from Vanny) was fitted. I've also had the orange 'overheating' warning light appear a couple of times in the last month. I've read here about the 'red lamp of death', but my lamp was definitely orange, not red, so does that mean it yet hadn't reached 'death' temperature?.
It seems like I have 3 choices:
1. Have another garage see where they think the leak is coming from. Then when the leak is fixed, try K-seal again, in the hope that it will have a better chance to fix any cracks or gasket problem. If that doesn't work, head gasket replacement.., but that won't help if the head is distorted or the block is cracked?
2. Try to diagnose whether it's cracked block or head gasket at fault, then decide what to do.
3. Replace the whole engine, as the garage suggests. Citroen 1.7 turbo-diesel engines are quite rare and generally high mileage, but Peugeot 1.9 turbo-diesels much more available, and low mileage. Does anyone know if that would be a feasible replacement?.
BX 17 TZD with worsening cooling system problems
-
andycadabra
- BXpert
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm
- Location: Kennington, London
- x 1
Which Orange light are you actually refering to? The one in the centre of the dashboard or the one over in the top right hand corner?I've also had the orange 'overheating' warning light appear a couple of times in the last month. I've read here about the 'red lamp of death', but my lamp was definitely orange, not red, so does that mean it yet hadn't reached 'death' temperature?.
If it is small pin head sized one in the top right corner that is the lights of death. Indicating overheating!
We got a truck in our yard thats using water no leaks apparent. Weeks of pressure testing and it looks like its actually a Cylinder thats busted. Causing over pressure in the cooling system pushing out water. It does not over heat until the water level gets low, but knowing how flimsey the heads are on a BX then I really think you got a stuffed head/engine.
-
docchevron
- The Immoderate half of the admin team
- Posts: 7524
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:03 pm
- Location: A Bucket of Fish
- x 7
- Contact:
The orange light tells you it's fubar, the red light tells you it's probably already stopped in a steaming mess...
If the stat was knackered then the chances are the engines got very hot and cooked itself, the first thing to go will be the alloy head, so I'd be amazed if it wasn't warped now.
Could also be a crack int he cylinder block although it's nearly always on number 1 cylinder, and generally doesn't seem to affect the 1.7's anywhere near as much as the 1.9's.
None of which helps you much...
If you can find a complete known to be good 1.9TD lump it isn't difficult to swop it out as mentioned elsewhere here, but it does have rather expensive insurance complications..
If the stat was knackered then the chances are the engines got very hot and cooked itself, the first thing to go will be the alloy head, so I'd be amazed if it wasn't warped now.
Could also be a crack int he cylinder block although it's nearly always on number 1 cylinder, and generally doesn't seem to affect the 1.7's anywhere near as much as the 1.9's.
None of which helps you much...
If you can find a complete known to be good 1.9TD lump it isn't difficult to swop it out as mentioned elsewhere here, but it does have rather expensive insurance complications..
Smokes lots, because enough's enough already!
Far too many BX's, a bus, an ambulance a few trucks, not enough time and never enough cash...
Far too many BX's, a bus, an ambulance a few trucks, not enough time and never enough cash...
it dose sound like you have an internal cooling problem in the engine its self,
but clutching at straws the leak at the rear could just be one of the rubber blancking caps on the plastic water branch, appart from you say it seems to worsen as the temprature rises,
i would try fixing the leak at the plastic water branch and bleed the cooling system extensivly,
but even before that crack the engine over whilst stone cold with the cap off,
if coolant gushes out the head or gasket have definetly failed
regards malcolm
but clutching at straws the leak at the rear could just be one of the rubber blancking caps on the plastic water branch, appart from you say it seems to worsen as the temprature rises,
i would try fixing the leak at the plastic water branch and bleed the cooling system extensivly,
but even before that crack the engine over whilst stone cold with the cap off,
if coolant gushes out the head or gasket have definetly failed
regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special
no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special
no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
-
mat_fenwick
- Moderator
- Posts: 7326
- Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:08 pm
- Location: North Wales
- x 19
And/or start the engine (cold) with the cap on, run for about 30 seconds, then take the cap off. On a healthy engine you should have no pressure build up at this stage, as the water will still be cold at this point. If there is a hiss (and bubbles) then you have an internal leakage problem.
1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
-
andycadabra
- BXpert
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm
- Location: Kennington, London
- x 1
Thanks for the helpful replies everyone.
Kiwi - the orange light I referred to is to the right of the rev counter labelled with a thermometer. I think the red one is higher up with a graphic that looks something like flying saucer. Thankfully I don't think that's ever come on.
DocChevron - interesting that you mentioned it was nearly always number one cylinder, since the external leak is certainly coming from that area (I'm assuming that number one cylinder is the one on the drivers side).
citronut & Mat - I've tried what you both suggested - there's no hiss, pressure buildup and the water certainly doesn't gush out, there's a certain amount of bubbling (probably enough to make a bubble the size of a ping-pong ball every few seconds) and little noticeable exhaust fumes/steam until it's been running a few minutes. Then there's an occasional rise in the water level to look slightly overflows and then goes back again (I think that's normal?) And more noticeable exhaust fumes/steam. The water in the expansion tank is still cold by now so I'm not sure that could be steam?
.
Incidentally, I think by virtue the position of of the leak (next to where the heater hoses join the engine), the heater is not working so there must be a fair bit of a in the system, which might account for some of the bubbling.
Also the leak only happens when the cooling system becomes pressurised, rather than when the engine reaches a certain temperature. If I take the radiator cap off, the leak stops.
At the moment the bubbling in the expansion tank doesn't seem any worse than it was during the summer, when a breakdown guy bled the system and remarked that there was still a regular bubble in the expansion tank, recommending K-seal. It was ok for a few months, until I stupidly added washing-up liquid about a month ago!
Could the effect of having the leak be to cause the coolant water to boil in the same way as taking the radiator cap off would? Therefore fixing it would contain the coolant and the temperature. Would it also give K-seal a better chance to work since the pressure that was able to build up in the cooling system could then 'fight back' against the compression pressure leaking into it and allow the internal leak to be fixed?
I know I'm clutching at straws here, but even if I can get a replacement engine for £200, I'm sure my garage will charge £300 for fitting it, and may not cope well with adapting an engine which is not identical to the original. And in most cases I'd be buying an engine that I wouldn't have a chance to hear or see working.
Kiwi - the orange light I referred to is to the right of the rev counter labelled with a thermometer. I think the red one is higher up with a graphic that looks something like flying saucer. Thankfully I don't think that's ever come on.
DocChevron - interesting that you mentioned it was nearly always number one cylinder, since the external leak is certainly coming from that area (I'm assuming that number one cylinder is the one on the drivers side).
citronut & Mat - I've tried what you both suggested - there's no hiss, pressure buildup and the water certainly doesn't gush out, there's a certain amount of bubbling (probably enough to make a bubble the size of a ping-pong ball every few seconds) and little noticeable exhaust fumes/steam until it's been running a few minutes. Then there's an occasional rise in the water level to look slightly overflows and then goes back again (I think that's normal?) And more noticeable exhaust fumes/steam. The water in the expansion tank is still cold by now so I'm not sure that could be steam?
.
Incidentally, I think by virtue the position of of the leak (next to where the heater hoses join the engine), the heater is not working so there must be a fair bit of a in the system, which might account for some of the bubbling.
Also the leak only happens when the cooling system becomes pressurised, rather than when the engine reaches a certain temperature. If I take the radiator cap off, the leak stops.
At the moment the bubbling in the expansion tank doesn't seem any worse than it was during the summer, when a breakdown guy bled the system and remarked that there was still a regular bubble in the expansion tank, recommending K-seal. It was ok for a few months, until I stupidly added washing-up liquid about a month ago!
Could the effect of having the leak be to cause the coolant water to boil in the same way as taking the radiator cap off would? Therefore fixing it would contain the coolant and the temperature. Would it also give K-seal a better chance to work since the pressure that was able to build up in the cooling system could then 'fight back' against the compression pressure leaking into it and allow the internal leak to be fixed?
I know I'm clutching at straws here, but even if I can get a replacement engine for £200, I'm sure my garage will charge £300 for fitting it, and may not cope well with adapting an engine which is not identical to the original. And in most cases I'd be buying an engine that I wouldn't have a chance to hear or see working.
-
docchevron
- The Immoderate half of the admin team
- Posts: 7524
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:03 pm
- Location: A Bucket of Fish
- x 7
- Contact:
No.1 is the flywheel end of the engine on XU engines.
I guess from here you really need to fix the leak then thoroughly flush the cooling system with a good flushing agent.
Then bleed it all with fresh coolant and see what happens, best case senario it'll be fine, but I fear the head gasket is probably a gonner by now..
I guess from here you really need to fix the leak then thoroughly flush the cooling system with a good flushing agent.
Then bleed it all with fresh coolant and see what happens, best case senario it'll be fine, but I fear the head gasket is probably a gonner by now..
Smokes lots, because enough's enough already!
Far too many BX's, a bus, an ambulance a few trucks, not enough time and never enough cash...
Far too many BX's, a bus, an ambulance a few trucks, not enough time and never enough cash...
if crancking the engine over whilst stone cold you get any bubbles at all you have defenetly got a head gasket failiure,
also if the heater dose not heat up this could be why you cant bleed the system fully, you might find the heater valve or matrix blocked,
regards malcolm
also if the heater dose not heat up this could be why you cant bleed the system fully, you might find the heater valve or matrix blocked,
regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special
no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special
no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
-
andycadabra
- BXpert
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm
- Location: Kennington, London
- x 1
thanks for your continuing help guys!
There is bubbling though no visible fumes when cranking over cold, but as long as there's air in the system, this would surely escape as bubbles appearing in the expansion tank?.
The heater is occasionally working, but as soon as the leak starts near to the flange where the hoses meet, the heater radiator is probably the first thing to empty, and because of its height, the hardest thing to get working again.
Incidentally the car is more reluctant to start than ever, and making an uneven 'train' type rhythm when it turns over before starting. Could this be a sign that there is water in one of the cylinders?
Is there any way of telling whether the problem is down to a head gasket, or warped head or cracked block?
Does the fact that K-seal doesn't seem to have managed to cure the the internal leak, as the makers claim it should, give any clues?
Does the fact that the head gasket is only just over 2 years old and only covered about 8000 miles mean that it's unlikely to have gone?
By the way I have an ingenious plan to mount my camcorder on a stick and try to video the leak once it starts to find out where it's actually coming from...
There is bubbling though no visible fumes when cranking over cold, but as long as there's air in the system, this would surely escape as bubbles appearing in the expansion tank?.
The heater is occasionally working, but as soon as the leak starts near to the flange where the hoses meet, the heater radiator is probably the first thing to empty, and because of its height, the hardest thing to get working again.
Incidentally the car is more reluctant to start than ever, and making an uneven 'train' type rhythm when it turns over before starting. Could this be a sign that there is water in one of the cylinders?
Is there any way of telling whether the problem is down to a head gasket, or warped head or cracked block?
Does the fact that K-seal doesn't seem to have managed to cure the the internal leak, as the makers claim it should, give any clues?
Does the fact that the head gasket is only just over 2 years old and only covered about 8000 miles mean that it's unlikely to have gone?
By the way I have an ingenious plan to mount my camcorder on a stick and try to video the leak once it starts to find out where it's actually coming from...
-
mat_fenwick
- Moderator
- Posts: 7326
- Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:08 pm
- Location: North Wales
- x 19
Does it look anything like this?
The fact that the HG is fairly new doesn't mean it won't fail again, if the fault that caused it to go in the first place was not rectified at the time...
The fact that the HG is fairly new doesn't mean it won't fail again, if the fault that caused it to go in the first place was not rectified at the time...
1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
-
andycadabra
- BXpert
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm
- Location: Kennington, London
- x 1
Mat - what a splendid use of youtube! yes pretty much like that!
although, as I said in my previous post, unless the system has been ready well bled, the bubbles could be naturally appearing as coolant fills more of the system?
incidentally, the HG never failed before. The camshaft broke and I ended up fitting a new head supplied by Vanny so a new head gasket was fitted at the time.
I've just discovered a new magic potion called 'steel seal' which claims to fix gaskets and cracked blocks. works in a different way to K-seal which relies on particles. Steel seal is just a yellow liquid. It might be worth a try for 30 quid..
http://www.steelseal.co.uk/steel-seal-- ... rs-1-p.asp
although, as I said in my previous post, unless the system has been ready well bled, the bubbles could be naturally appearing as coolant fills more of the system?
incidentally, the HG never failed before. The camshaft broke and I ended up fitting a new head supplied by Vanny so a new head gasket was fitted at the time.
I've just discovered a new magic potion called 'steel seal' which claims to fix gaskets and cracked blocks. works in a different way to K-seal which relies on particles. Steel seal is just a yellow liquid. It might be worth a try for 30 quid..
http://www.steelseal.co.uk/steel-seal-- ... rs-1-p.asp
Reading this reminded me of it taking 18 months to finally accept my HG had gone. Actually it was not until leaving it parked up for 10days and allowing one of the cylinders to fill up with water that it was conclusive of Head Failure.
The head Gasket was actually in preetty good shape when they took it off except this one spot. Hence why the symptoms of HG failure where not clear.
You stated the Yellow warning light had come on! The warning lamp comes to life way above the fan cut-in temperature. So was the yellow warning light flashing or constant? Then are you sure the Red Light of Death is working? Only takes one blown bulb.
The head Gasket was actually in preetty good shape when they took it off except this one spot. Hence why the symptoms of HG failure where not clear.
You stated the Yellow warning light had come on! The warning lamp comes to life way above the fan cut-in temperature. So was the yellow warning light flashing or constant? Then are you sure the Red Light of Death is working? Only takes one blown bulb.
Personally I feel from what you have said until now the Garage is right on its diagnosis and no matter what so called quick cures and miracle engine block repairs you throw at it the Head is probably warped from when that light came on.The next leak seemed to be coming from the 'flange' which bolts to the engine beneath the water pump to which about 4 hoses are fixed to. I managed to get one on eBay and was surprised to find it was made of black plastic. However, the garage doesn't reckon this is the problem, and they think it's a crack in the cylinder block (but then they did once diagnose what turned out to be a breaking clutch pedal as a failed clutch!) . So yesterday I tried K-seal, hoping it could deal with any cracked block, but unfortunately it didn't help at all.
-
andycadabra
- BXpert
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm
- Location: Kennington, London
- x 1
The meter on the bottom right of the dashboard display has 2 lights one either side of a thermometer sign. Only the one on the left has come on, which is orange (and it's been constant, not flashing), and I've always stopped the car after a few seconds.
Logically I would have thought that the light on the right of the temperature would come on at an even higher temperature, and is maybe red? It has never come on neither has the one at the top with the 'flying saucer' sign. Of course I don't know if either of the bulbs are working but it would be too much of a coincidence if they had both gone?
Kiwi, I'm not sure whether your cylinder head warped or the head gasket went, or both? If the head has warped, would changing the head gasket solve the problem, or would I need a new head?.
The cost of having a new head gasket would be about £200, and it might not even be the gasket causing the problem. It could be a cracked block. If it is found to be a cracked block, is that repairable?
I know K-seal hasn't solved the problem so far, but this other stuff works in a different way, so it just might, so it's probably worth chancing £30.
The testimonials are good anyway, assuming they're written by genuine customers!
Logically I would have thought that the light on the right of the temperature would come on at an even higher temperature, and is maybe red? It has never come on neither has the one at the top with the 'flying saucer' sign. Of course I don't know if either of the bulbs are working but it would be too much of a coincidence if they had both gone?
Kiwi, I'm not sure whether your cylinder head warped or the head gasket went, or both? If the head has warped, would changing the head gasket solve the problem, or would I need a new head?.
The cost of having a new head gasket would be about £200, and it might not even be the gasket causing the problem. It could be a cracked block. If it is found to be a cracked block, is that repairable?
I know K-seal hasn't solved the problem so far, but this other stuff works in a different way, so it just might, so it's probably worth chancing £30.
The testimonials are good anyway, assuming they're written by genuine customers!
Mine was a simple blown Gasket which involved the minimum of skimming to clean the head.
I have known (actually owned) many years ago a BX that the HG was complete destroyed. So when it did blow and overheated it distorted the head so much it could not be skimmed without mods to the valves. Ended up cheaper to put good secondhand one on.
If those temperature lights have come on then the head is most likely warped to some extent allowing water to escape passed the gasket if intact.
I guess really you could have several causes! You mentioned cracked block? Given the severity of the cold in a UK winter then thats likely if you have just been using tap water to top up the cooling system.
Your problems may all be caused by not putting the correct coolant!!!
Result something either corroded, froze and ultimately blew.
Maybe you will get away with K-seal for now and maybe it will blck one of those important waterways in the engine. Is it worth it?
I have known (actually owned) many years ago a BX that the HG was complete destroyed. So when it did blow and overheated it distorted the head so much it could not be skimmed without mods to the valves. Ended up cheaper to put good secondhand one on.
If those temperature lights have come on then the head is most likely warped to some extent allowing water to escape passed the gasket if intact.
I guess really you could have several causes! You mentioned cracked block? Given the severity of the cold in a UK winter then thats likely if you have just been using tap water to top up the cooling system.
Your problems may all be caused by not putting the correct coolant!!!
Result something either corroded, froze and ultimately blew.
Maybe you will get away with K-seal for now and maybe it will blck one of those important waterways in the engine. Is it worth it?
-
andycadabra
- BXpert
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm
- Location: Kennington, London
- x 1
The coolant leak seems to be the return hose from the heater where it meets the flange/junction box. Barely accessible from the flange end, still haven't figured out where it meets the heater matrix, but that will be for the garage to find out!.
Once that's done I'll give this 'steel seal' stuff a try. It gives detailed additional directions for cases like mine which involve relieving the pressure on the cooling system by finding out which cylinder has the problem. Either each injector, or heating plug need to be removed one at a time until the bubbles don't appear in the expansion tank, then the treatment is applied. Oddly it needs almost half the cooling system to be antifreeze to work.
http://www.steelseal.co.uk/how-to-use--faq-4-w.asp
Once that's done I'll give this 'steel seal' stuff a try. It gives detailed additional directions for cases like mine which involve relieving the pressure on the cooling system by finding out which cylinder has the problem. Either each injector, or heating plug need to be removed one at a time until the bubbles don't appear in the expansion tank, then the treatment is applied. Oddly it needs almost half the cooling system to be antifreeze to work.
http://www.steelseal.co.uk/how-to-use--faq-4-w.asp