BX 17 TZD with worsening cooling system problems

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jonathan_dyane
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Post by jonathan_dyane »

mat_fenwick wrote:I'm just wondering now whether a leaking valve could cause a pressure test fail? Surely they'd check that...
A friend, even more cynical than I, is of the opinion that crack testing heads is a waste of time, as (apparently) to do so involves blocking numerous waterways and such with bungs, and a failed test may just as easily be caused by a leaking bung...

I'd be very interested to see some pics of the head gasket you removed; if the gasket itself was leaking there are invariably signs.
"Boring damned people. All over the earth. Propagating more boring damned people. What a horror show. The earth swarmed with them." -Charles Bukowski
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mat_fenwick
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Post by mat_fenwick »

No signs on the gasket, which is the main reason for the pressure test. What I may do (before I scrap it tomorrow!) is take some sandpaper to is to see if that reveals any crack.
That said, it's very dark and cold out there, I still haven't connected the garage up to the mains and I have a nice glass of wine in the house...but I am now slightly curious!
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1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
citronut
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Post by citronut »

i have built a head presurising kit for the XUD heads, it consists of a piece of steel plate the length and width of the haed face, opennings cut cylender ports, a sheet of 1/4 inch thick rubber, a set of 10 nuts and bolts to bolt the plate to the head with rubber sheet in between, a blanking plate and rubber gasket with tyre valve fitted for the water way at the end of the head,

and a rubber cap for the heater hose spout,

with all the above fitted place it in a container full of water and presureise it to about 80psi, then whatch for bubbles,

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
Linegeist
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Post by Linegeist »

citronut wrote:i have built a head presurising kit for the XUD heads, it consists of a piece of steel plate the length and width of the haed face, opennings cut cylender ports, a sheet of 1/4 inch thick rubber, a set of 10 nuts and bolts to bolt the plate to the head with rubber sheet in between, a blanking plate and rubber gasket with tyre valve fitted for the water way at the end of the head,

and a rubber cap for the heater hose spout,

with all the above fitted place it in a container full of water and presureise it to about 80psi, then whatch for bubbles,

regards malcolm
Damn! That's a brilliant idea!!! Make a good summer 'rainy day' project that would. Nice one!!! \:D/
Brian
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Post by Brian »

Hi Citronut,

That is indeed a summer project...

The method I use to get an idea where the leak is without taking the head off is thus:

1. Modify an old heater plug, knock off the heater element, right through so as to leave a tube. Weld or braze a tube on the end to accept an air line.
2. Fill the radiator up to the brim, and leave the cap off.
3. Remove the cam cover to observe the valves.
3a. Check the valve clearances, these engines are prone to valve seat recession.
4. Remove all the existing glow plugs, scew in the modified glow plug.
5. Rotate the engine till both valves are closed on the cylinder to be tested - TDC.
6. Presurise the cylinder "I use 100psi"
7. Measure the time when the compressor kicks in again.
8. Repeat on other cylinders.

This method will determine piston ring condition, you will hear the air escaping past the rings, remove the dip stick.

Listen for air excaping from exhaust pipe, and inlet remove air filter.

And of course observe the water surface in the rad for bubbles and overflowing.

This method will allow you to form a assessment of all the cylinders.
On a good engine, you will be looking for consistent results, with minimal variations.
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Post by kiwi »

andycadabra wrote:The thing is the head gasket is only just over 2 years old, and I've only covered about 8000 miles on it,
More valuable information you neglected to mention.
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mat_fenwick
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Post by mat_fenwick »

Andy, in the first post of the thread wrote:I had a new head gasket 2 years ago when a replacement head (from Vanny) was fitted.
Come on Kiwi, pay attention... :wink:
jonathan_dyane wrote:if the gasket itself was leaking there are invariably signs.
What, like this?
Image
If you like I can circle the area where I think it has failed.

Back to my XUD head - I cleaned up the no.3 combustion chamber and it has indeed cracked. Just out of shot on the earlier picture, but finer than the ones in the pre-chamber. So it looks as though the pressure test was valid, although if I'd cleaned it up beforehand I needn't have bothered. But got a whole 6 quid for it today at the scrappys!
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1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
andycadabra
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Post by andycadabra »

I've made a few short trips with the cap off, which is getting through an awful lot of water, . Also finding that although it restarts fine once it's running, when cold starting it needs a lot of coaxing with easy start. It always started ok before so I wonder if this is down to water leaking into the cylinder, or cylinders?
Can't really go on like this, so need to decide whether to go for repair or replace. As the head gasket was new couple of years ago, I fear it might be a cracked head or block.
So if I go down the route of having their head gasket changed and it turns out to be a cracked block (a). I'll have to get hold of a new engine urgently (with the car taking up their garage space) and won't be able to pick and choose, and (b). I suppose I'll end up paying for the fitting of a new engine AND the stripping down to the head gasket.
Mat - As eplacement would probably mean a 1.9td - how much did the extra 2bhp put on your insurance premium?
andycadabra
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Post by andycadabra »

had the bright idea of removing the heating plug from the suspected problem cylinder, and inserting a drinking straw to find out if there was water escaping into the cylinder causing the the abominable recent cold starting. It wouldn't go in more than 2 inches before it hit something, probably not the top of the piston as I cranked the engine a few times and it was always the same.

just returned from a tour of local garages (all Latin Americans it seems!) to weigh up the 'repair or replace' situation. The one that's done all the work so far is a bit dodgy but has already given a good quote for engine replacement of £180.
The first garage I went to quoted £500 for an engine change, and the 2nd one £350. However the first one offered to take the engine apart to see what the problem was, for £50, and if it was just the gasket, it would be fixed for not much more.
The 2nd one said 'bring the car in and we'll have a look without charge'. I asked how they would find out whether it was a gasket/head or block problem without taking the engine apart, and he insisted there were ways. Frankly I suspect not, but if anyone knows different?

At the moment I'm planning to let the first lot have a look for £50, so I might know by tomorrow night the cause of all this.
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Post by citronut »

i would not let them do a head gasket job if they tell you it aint going to be much more than 50 quid to fix,
as you will not get a proper job done for that
regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
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mat_fenwick
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Post by mat_fenwick »

If you were cynical you may even think it a ploy to get your car in the garage with its head removed, at which point you're kind of over a barrel if they start sucking through their teeth "Oooh, it'll cost you now".
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1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
andycadabra
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Post by andycadabra »

http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad351/andycad/g1.jpg

http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad351/andycad/g2.jpg


just got back from the garage. Nothing apparently major wrong with the gasket to my eyes but he's identified 2 points where he thinks it's gone which you can see from the photos. Worse news is that there are hairline cracks between the 2 valve courts in 2 of the cylinders. I haven't managed to get a decent picture of these cracks yet, so not posted.

Surfing the Internet I found the specialist who would repair it but it would take 8 weeks and £600!. As the chances of getting a hold of a 1.7 head are pretty remote is, I've got 2 choices.

It is 1. Have the engine put back together with a new head gasket and hope that solves most of the problem or at least gives me a chance to fix it with k-seal. Probably will end up going for engine replacement, but at least I might have a usable car for the moment.

Or 2. Leave the engine dismantled, and have the garage that gave me the decent quote of £180 for engine replacement tow it 200 m to the street outside their place - they'll at least have less work to do when it comes to removal.

Bearing in mind the only extra cost involved in going for option one would be the £25 costs of the gasket, I'd be inclined to go for that.
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Post by andycadabra »

option 3 - I suppose I'd have to use my existing camshaft and pulley to drive the HP pump.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PEUGEOT-205-309-4 ... 25569652a2
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mat_fenwick
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Post by mat_fenwick »

I can recommend them, very helpful - I was after a head when mine developed a crack. So I sent them a message asking if they had any second hand 1.9TD heads - they did, so asked discussing things on the phone (with Brian I think?) I decided on a second hand one, but tested and with new valve seals. He asked if I needed the BX cam as they had some spare, but as I already had one I didn't need it.
I would go for that option rather than risk putting it all back together again. You should get some peace of mind that way!
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1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
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Post by andycadabra »

yes Mat and they seem to bea good firm. Just worried that my engine block and injectors aren't worthy of it! I may delay payment in case I can get hold of a cheaper second-hand one before Monday.

I had to dig out my old Canon Ixus with a broken zoom as my new Samsung is rubbish at these kind of photos.

http://s951.photobucket.com/albums/ad351/andycad/

it looks like there could be a small crack between the valve seats in each of the cylinders. Can anyone tell, by looking at these pictures and the head gasket, what would have been responsible for all the pressure in the cooling system? if it's likely to be the gasket, it still might be worth changing that, and seeing what happens.
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