Turbo at fault in BX17 TZD?

BX Tech talk
andycadabra
BXpert
BXpert
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Kennington, London

Turbo at fault in BX17 TZD?

Post by andycadabra » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:28 pm

I have a Citroen BX 17TZD which recently seems to have lost a lot of engine power. My local garage says the clutch need replacing, but, when I tested for clutch slippage (handbrake on, letting the clutch up in fourth gear), the car did stall.
The engine won't rev above 4000 rpm while stationary (taking about two seconds to reach that from idle) and I suspect the turbo isn't working because it would noticeably kick in at about 2500 rpm, and allow the car to be revved to about 5,500 rpm. Whilst he's quoted me what I think he is quite a good price to do the clutch (£250 Labour), I don't want to have this done only to find there are other things which need expensive repairs.
Can anyone give me any pointers as I will need to do a lot of driving at Christmas and would like to be sure of what the problems are. Also can anyone recommend a good Citroen mechanic in central or south London?

User avatar
ken newbold
Over 2k
Posts: 4408
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:53 pm
x 5

Post by ken newbold » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:41 pm

Welcome to the BXClub Andy.

Firstly, are you sure you are getting full throttle at the pump. Have someone depress the throttle pedal to the floor (engine off) and check the lever on the fuel pump and make sure it's right up against it's stops.

Reason being, BXs are prone to Pedal Box failure, I've know them crack and so prevent you achiving max throttle.
They think it's all over, it is now!

Stewart (oily!)
1K Away
1K Away
Posts: 1604
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 6:23 pm
Location: North Wales

Post by Stewart (oily!) » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:13 pm

Your turbo wont do a lot revving the motor with the car standing still, to make boost you need load, uphill, flat out in fourth or similar, the turbo itself is a very reliable unit that rarely fails, more likely is a pipe falling off somewhere or splitting, first one to check is the pipe between the bottom front of the intercooler and the fuel pump, its about half an inch in diameter and basically tells the fuel pump to deliver more fuel when the turbo is blowing, then definitely as Ken says check you are getting full throttle and that the accelerator pedal has not fallen over/off. £250 sounds a bit steep for labour on a clutch, then agaain I live up here in Wales :D
TZD 19 TD one of the few
Xantia Td estate, going soft

User avatar
DavidRutherford
BX Digit man!
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 5:07 pm
Location: Placing comments on YouTube.

Post by DavidRutherford » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:44 pm

Andy... the Rev-limiter on an XUD is set at around 5000rpm, not 5500, so you should never achieve 5500.

Even if the turbo had completely failed, you should still be able to get the engine to rev to it's limiter, so I would also guess that you're not getting full accelerator lever travel at the pump.

Once you've fixed that, the check for a slipping clutch is to be going up a hill, foot-to-the-floor at about 2500-3000rpm. Now just lightly touch the clutch pedal. Does the engine rev to 5000? if so, when you remove the pressure from the clutch, does it drop back?

Even if the clutch is beginning to slip, you should easily be able to get another 5k miles out of it by driving gently, and not flooring it. £250 is indeed rather steep for a clutch, since anyone who knows what they're doing should be able to do one in about 2-3 hours.
this might be a signature

User avatar
ken newbold
Over 2k
Posts: 4408
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:53 pm
x 5

Post by ken newbold » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:17 pm

2-3 hours for a turbo diesel clutch :o I think not.
They think it's all over, it is now!

classic2cv
BXpert
BXpert
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: West Yorks

Post by classic2cv » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:00 pm

Welcome to the Club Andy.

My clutch slips a little but only if I provoke it (floor the gas) and up hill at that
:shock: (make note change it soon) :shock:
As said before the problem may be with the linkages or pedal box

if you can hear whistling with the windows closed and the Hifi on
Then you may have a leak so check all the joints :? :roll:
Citroen BX

Origami in plastic and steel

^^ ^^^^bx>

User avatar
DavidRutherford
BX Digit man!
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 5:07 pm
Location: Placing comments on YouTube.

Post by DavidRutherford » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:17 pm

ken newbold wrote:2-3 hours for a turbo diesel clutch :o I think not.
Why not? I did a Pug 405 TD clutch in just under 2 hours, so even allowing another hour for the problems associated with the hydraulics, that should be do-able.

And that's using jacks and axle stands... if this is a garage with a 2- or 4-post lift, then it should be even easier.
this might be a signature

jeremy
Over 2k
Posts: 2112
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:58 am
Location: Hampshire UK

Post by jeremy » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:40 am

If the pedal falls off it feels loose - when mine was off it could get full power by pushing it towards the brake pedal with my foot! I repaired it temporarily with a short section of 1 inch angel iron carefully fitted to existing bolts when I got the car 6 years ago and haven't even looked at my handiwork since. (Much easier than removing the pedal box for welding etc.)

As someone has mentioned the other favorite is the pipe from the intercooler to the injection pump which communicated the boost pressure to the extra fuel device on the pump. This pipe also goes to the excess boost pressure warning light switch which is under the battery and this pipe should be sound as well (It rots and splits at the switch end). This will reduce power but not by as much as you are suffering.

jeremy

H Reg Pete
Confirmed BX'er
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: South West Scotland

Post by H Reg Pete » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:36 am

Hi guys, Sorry to but in at this point but could this leaking pipe problem be the cause of my problem, when accelerating hard, to about 80 miles an hour the bx 1.7tzd shudders like hell or is it just that I need the wheels balanced. It feels as though the engine wants to go faster but is struggling. I used to be able to cruise quite nicely at 90 with out any problems at all. All tyres have been replaced and wheels balanced in the last 3 months.
Regards
Hreg
H Reg BX TZD Turbo

User avatar
cavmad
Keeper of the site Goat
Posts: 7858
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 9:13 am

Post by cavmad » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:05 am

Wheel balance shoudln`t effect the engine peformance Pete, it`s more likely to be a discernable shake through the steering wheel which usually lasts about 3-5mph, for example at speeds between 65-70mph.
Vauxhall apologist.

User avatar
ken newbold
Over 2k
Posts: 4408
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:53 pm
x 5

Post by ken newbold » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:10 am

You could have a driveshaft/CV joint problem.
They think it's all over, it is now!

jeremy
Over 2k
Posts: 2112
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:58 am
Location: Hampshire UK

Post by jeremy » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:16 am

Hi Pete

If your problem was engine I think the power would just tail off smoothly - just like when you try to overrev the car. I think also you would notice the problem in the lower gears.

I agree with ken - sounds like driveshaft but might be engine mounts. I have a roughness on my TD BX which can be felt through the gear lever and which i will investigate some nice day soon. I however think its going to turn out to be driveshaft.

Remember to check the inner joints as well. They should not move when grasped and pushed up and down.

jeremy

tom
Citroen Sorceror
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:51 pm
Location: straddling the channel

Post by tom » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:22 pm

Taking things in order, having read the original post:
BX17TZD may not necessarily be a turbo! Assuming, however that it is:
a clutch failure would not prevent a stationary diesel from exceeding 4000RPM. This sounds like a look at the clip on the throttle cable could do with adjusting, or it may be the old BX pedal gremlin. That will probably fix the problem. Should this not be the case, I would take a good look at the boring and obvious bits: I'd check the air filter and change the fuel filter. Rough running at over 75 is hard to quantify without hearing it for myself but I would be looking for smoke to determine whether there was an injector playing up so running a bottle of cleaning juice through it may help.

I have yet to meet the person who can change a BX clutch in two hours. It is a very different beast to a 405!

I have yet to meet a BX diesel that will make 5,500 rpm but I live in hope.
Attempting to achieve this speed will probably break something expensive sooner rather than later. 4,500 is a practical maximun.

User avatar
DLM
Our Trim Guru
Posts: 1569
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Gosport, Hampshire, UK
My Cars: None since the last BX.
x 1

Post by DLM » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:03 pm

17TZD is definitely, a turbo Tom - normally-aspirated 17s were only supplied up to RD/TGD spec.

As for the clutch andycadabra, - why not apply the standard test you'd do with any car when checking for clutch slip - drop the clutch suddenly while stationary in 3rd with the handbrake on. If the car does other than stall straight away then it's the clutch.

On my old 19TGD, clutch end-of-life was indicated by a tendency for the revs to run away without increasing roadspeed at above 3000 rpm - very noticeable on the motorway.
Relying on two wheels and musclepower since the last BX (or any car) had to go.

andycadabra
BXpert
BXpert
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Kennington, London

Post by andycadabra » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:18 am

Thanks for all your helpful suggestions, guys. You've been a great help. I haven't had time to try everything yet, and invested £15 in a Haynes Citroen diesel manual which was a bit disappointing once I got the plastic wrapping off!
The amount of travel in the throttle lever/cable is only about 12 mm, and at full pedal throttle, it's only travelled half way towards the factory locked limiter. I was able to get 4500 rpm by pulling the cable but by adjusting the cable to give me that I would end up with too fast an idle speed. It was certainly very sluggish trying to get up the hill tonight. Regarding revving the engine, is it normal to take about two seconds to reach 4000 rpm from idle?.

I changed the air filter this week to no avail, but will check the fuel filter tomorrow, and will also try and take it to a 'Mr clutch' for a free clutch check.

The small pipe that leads from the intercooler to the fuel pump, I believe I've located. Does it exit from the moulded plastic base of the intercooler about a third of the distance along it (from the left) and is something like 20 cm long? I can't see any split in it but from what you said it might be worth taking it off to see if it blocked and to examine it more closely. If the turbo is working properly but not able to communicate to the fuel pump to pump more fuel would it be completely ineffective as seems to be the case?
Jeremy, I was puzzled that this hose didn't have any extension leading to the switch located under the battery, but what I've read in another forum suggests that this may be a feature that was discontinued in about 1990 (my car is a 92).