17 TZD Engine starts fine but peters out after a few seconds

andycadabra · Post by **andycadabra** » Tue May 04, 2010 7:11 pm

I have an annoying starting problem - the engine starts immediately, ticks over quite happily for about 5 seconds, then stalls, after which it's really reluctant to restart, but always does eventually.
Once it's running there's no usually more problems with restarting until the next day, though sometimes it happens again when it's been parked and allowed to cool.
I've tried different settings on the injection pump but haven't managed to solve the problem yet.
Does anyone have any ideas?

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Tue May 04, 2010 7:16 pm

Two possibilities,

Air in the fuel system, or

Heater plug down.

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Tue May 04, 2010 7:26 pm

Try pumping the diesel primer until it goes hard before starting. If it then starts fine, the problem is air...

KevR · Post by **KevR** » Wed May 05, 2010 12:24 pm

My Xantia used to do this. Turned out to be the bushes on the throttle shaft through the injection pump being worn and letting air in past the seals. Had that changed and it was a lot better.

andycadabra · Post by **andycadabra** » Wed May 05, 2010 7:18 pm

thanks for the helpful replies. I tried priming the pump before starting this morning and it was fine, so I'll try the same tomorrow.
Kev - what was it you changed, the diesel pump, or the bushes in the diesel pump?.How many miles had your Xantia done out of interest?. Was it the same roto diesel injection pump as I have?. I don't know if there's anything I can do to confirm that this is the problem?

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Wed May 05, 2010 9:12 pm

If pumping the fuel through manually before starting the engine cures the problem, sounds like you have air getting in the system, as in fuel running back to the tank when left overnight.

Pump the fuel up and watch for any leaks around the injection pump.

I wonder if your car has a fuel heater on the back of the engine

These are a constant source of air leaks, I'm not sure what year they stopped fitting them.

KevR · Post by **KevR** » Thu May 06, 2010 9:18 am

andycadabra wrote:
Kev - what was it you changed, the diesel pump, or the bushes in the diesel pump?.How many miles had your Xantia done out of interest?. Was it the same roto diesel injection pump as I have?. I don't know if there's anything I can do to confirm that this is the problem?

Good questions all...
It was under a limited warranty at the time (this was in 1998 or thereabouts) so I didn't do the work myself but they definitely changed the central spindle of the pump - the bit that's directly turned by the end of the throttle cable, if that makes sense. I think (but I may be wrong) that it was a CAV pump, and the play at the spindle was quite noticeable. The Xantia had done about 120,000 miles at the time - it was only four years old but it was an ex company car. It was the least reliable car I've ever had, always something going wrong. I eventually gave up on it when it spat its cambelt on the Paris Perepherique and snapped the camshaft...

andycadabra · Post by **andycadabra** » Thu May 06, 2010 1:43 pm

again, this morning it started flying after a few squeezes of the rugby ball. Looked hard for any leaks in the fuel filter and injection pump while squeezing, but none visible.
Ken -I can't see any evidence of a fuel heater on the back of the engine, and mine is a '92 so would probably have been discontinued by then. I can't find any mention of a fuel heater in the workshop manual either. there are just two 10mm fuel lines that go behind the engine, one supply from the tank, and one return I suppose.
Kev - mine has done 125,000, so that could be a possibility, but there doesn't seem to be noticeable play in the spindle. I wonder if the few seconds it will run before cutting out gives a clue as to where the leak might be?
My camshaft broke, out of the blue, a couple of years back, but didn't even need the cam-belt to break in order to do so..

Post by **mat_fenwick** » Thu May 06, 2010 2:22 pm

Andy, you do seem to be rather unlucky!

Couple of spots to check for air leaks - the primer bulb itself, and the fuel filter housing if it is the one with 4 bolts on top. A smear of vaseline around the seal may help to prove or disprove this. There is also the chance that the steel fuel lines may have a pinhole in them. I had this happen to me but this led to excessive cranking before firing, rather than instant starting then cutting out.

andycadabra · Post by **andycadabra** » Sun May 09, 2010 4:10 pm

Mat - it might seem that way but I suspect there's a few of us lucky enough to have only a short list of things needing attention. Luckily, the water pump has stopped leaking on its own!.
I tried your suggestion with the gasoline around the fuel filter, but it didn't help. The rubber priming pump can be rotated easily, in a way that doesn't inspire confidence, but were this to be leaking air I would expect fuel to leak out having pumped it?. also, on the basis that fuel is taken from the bottom of the fuel filter , wouldn't the engine have to use all the fuel in the filter bowl before cutting out?.
I suspect the full might lie in the injection pump, as Kev suggested, or connection to it from the fuel filter. The problem is getting worse now anyway. I can only be sure of an easy start less than 3 hours after it was running.
Also I'm getting an inexplicable random increase in tickover to sometimes more than 2000 RPM, then gradually returning to 1000, which doesn't appear to be down to a sticky throttle cable. I don't know if that's connected?

DavidRutherford · Post by **DavidRutherford** » Sun May 09, 2010 4:21 pm

It is indeed connected, and is entirely due to air in the fuel.

It's possible that the air is getting in before the priming bulb, which means although you can "pump up" the system and get the car to run, air is still getting in.

If the problem is getting worse then the steel fuel lines under the floor seem like a prime candidate to me. There will be a corrosion pinhole getting bigger and bigger.

With the car up on axle stands, have a good thorough look over the steel lines. You'll probably find an area wetted with fuel. This is your leak. Temporary fix is to cut out the affected bit and replace with rubber line. Permanent fix is to replace the steel lines either with new, or with microbore copper pipework from B&Q (which is a lot easier to fit and a darn-sight cheaper!)

rayfenwick · Post by **rayfenwick** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:41 am

andycadabra wrote:I tried your suggestion with the gasoline around the fuel filter, but it didn't help.

Err, wasn't that supposed to be Vaseline?

mat_fenwick wrote:A smear of vaseline around the seal may help to prove or disprove this.

A typo? It happens...

Post by **mat_fenwick** » Mon May 10, 2010 9:54 am

Could cause some 'interesting' problems if you get the two mixed up...

rayfenwick · Post by **rayfenwick** » Mon May 10, 2010 10:43 am

My thoughts exactly

andycadabra · Post by **andycadabra** » Mon May 10, 2010 3:55 pm

Can't you guys recognise a voice recognition typo when you see it? Embarrassing - I'm not a bloody American!. I said vaseline, it wrote gasoline. Must improve my proof-reading...
Anyway problem has now worsened to the extent where its troublesome every start, even after using the priming pump.
I was going to take a look at the fuel lines underneath today, as you suggested, David, but couldn't get it started due to an unconnected problem I last had a year ago. All lights go blank and nothing happens when attempting to turn it over. I've checked the battery connections, but awaiting the breakdown people at the moment. Last time it happened there was some trick to be done with the starter motor, but I can't remember what it was!
I am hoping they might be able to help with the fuel issue.