TXD 19 cambelt timing - advice needed!

tim · Post by **tim** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:27 pm

The BX19 diesel has been running well for 300 miles now after its revival, but the lawn of life is full of molehills. I put antifreeze in a couple of weeks ago (just in time!) and checked the level last week. Oops - topped up, checked again next day. Crap. Sure enough, I looked underneath and there was a steady drip from the pulley area, the old waterpump had obviously not lasted the course. I had intended to fit a new cambelt anyway so I ordered a bag of bits and after reading the 5 pages on the subject in FAQ, I attacked it this a.m. in the remains of the cold cold snow. All went well for a while; it seems obvious that the pulley will have to come off to give proper access to the pump (agreed?) and I lined up the holes in the pulleys prior to inserting the locking bolts. Here's the problem - the camshaft pulley hole is supposed to be at about 5 o clock. However, when I insert the bolt there is nothing but a blank sheet of steel behind the pulley without any holes, the inner half of the cover which is steel and appears to be not removable. The photo in FAQ clearly shows this still in place, as does the Haynes. What am I missing?? Without a hole to lock the camshaft pulley I can't go further - but it should be there! You can clearly see through the holes in the pulley with a torch, and see the end of the bolt hitting a blank wall. No hole to be seen. What on earth is going on? Advice please....

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:46 pm

I don't think you have to remove any pulley ( unless you're referring to the actual one on the pump itself) to change the water pump just remove the bottom hose. Everything should be 'locked' in place with the bolts as you describe before removing the timing belt. Obviously the timing is alright as it's running ok so the cam sprocket probably isn't on in the wrong way - I don't that's possible anyway with The Woodruf key. Maybe put it in gear and rotate the front wheel a bit by hand either way to see if you can get the bolt in I don't think it has to be exactly five O'clock it's just got to lock in synch with the injection pump sprocket.

Post by **Defender110** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:11 pm

Turn the crankshaft pulley another full turn, the cam shaft pulley only lines up every other revolution + no pulley needs removing.

tim · Post by **tim** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:16 pm

I mentioned the pulley because Haynes say remove it but in the FAQs it's suggested that the belt will slip off without you having to remove said pulley.. But looking at the confined space down there it would seem the pump needs to be accessed from below, which means the pulley is rather in the way. If y'all feel the pump can be removed and fitted properly with the pulley still in place, OK.
My main point was that as far as I can see there is NO bolt hole for the camshaft locking bolt to go into which is plainly daft - if the steel inner casing was fitted at the factory without a hole drilled in it, well, it could have happened. But the wagon has done over 100,000 miles and must have had the belt changed at least once. So what's going on? As I said, you can clearly see through the holes in the pulley and there is no bolt hole of any type, just a blank piece of steel.

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:18 pm

Sorry, Ican't quite follow your problem.

I take it you're trying to peg the engine prior to removing the timing belt?

The only pulley I know of that is in two parts is the crankshaft pulley, it is better to remove it but not essential.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that you may have got the crankshaft 180' degs out. The camshaft and fuel pump pulleys rotate twice for every full turn of the crank.

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:25 pm

To follow on.....

If your fuel pump has lined up correctly and indeed so has your crankshaft, then you must have a cylinder head with no holed drilled and tapped for this purpose.

Simply mark the sprocket with a paint marker or tip-ex against the cover so that you know where it should be when you've finished.

DO NOT FORGET TO REMOVE ALL LOCKING PINS AND TURN THE ENGINE OVER BY HAND AT LEAST TWO FULL REVS BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO START IT ON THE KEY

tim · Post by **tim** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:25 pm

Kevan, your reply came in while I was still typing mine. Both the Haynes diagram and the photo in FAQs clearly show the cam bolt hole at about 5 o'clock with the other two in the pump at about 2 and 5. This where I've got them - I have already slipped in some dowel to confirm, and once the ironmongers is open tomorrow I'll have some M8 bolts to make 100% sure. Personally I found the that the engine turned over quite well on the camshaft nut so doesn't have to be done from below or by turning the front wheel, and I can eyeball the cam wheel closely. I must be doing something incredibly wrong, but how and why?

tim · Post by **tim** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:40 pm

Ken - thanks for reply. Sorry, I thought I'd put it across OK. To recap. I am trying to peg the camshaft pulley wheel but can see no bolt hole in the casing for any locking bolt to engage in, even though the bolt hole is at the five o'clock position.. Fools rush in! My assumption is that the camshaft will always be under load and therefore if I take the belt off without locking it up first, it may snap round to a more 'comfortable' position. If I could be assured that in fact it doesn't do this then I could just carry on, but I would still rather lock it up. If the problem really is down to a factory cockup then I am going to have to improvise but the evening is young, and I still hope for a definitive answer before bed....

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:02 pm

If there is no hole in the cylinder head for a locking bolt, use the method described above, actually it would always pay to mark with paint marker pen or tip-ex anyway. Belt and braces an all that!

Did you manage to lock the flywheel in the hole behind the starter?

tim · Post by **tim** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:17 pm

No, that was the next job....Haynes shows a pristine motor painted grey, what I can see is a mess of pipes and 14 years of crud. I was going to take the advice on FAQs and remove the starter motor, but the third bolt is right next to the clutch pivot and it rather looks like someone has welded in a reinforcing brace right across the face where I presume you could otherwise insert an allen key. I assume the pivot can be removed complete by prising off that nylon or plastic cap and then unbolting it. At this point the toolbox bit me and terminal frostbite set in so I'll resume tomorrow. I miked up a junior hacksaw and it's only about 7.5mm so I will try and find a better fitting lock pin. But it really looks like I don't have the hole. Yes, paint marks are the only alternative from the look of it, I was just hoping there was a solution I'd missed. Once the lock pin is in the flywheel this will confirm what I suspect - don't forget, I don't think I've got the wheel in the wrong position given all the info available, there simply ain't no hole to lock into.

RxBX · Post by **RxBX** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:05 pm

Hi Tim,

Have you read thro' THIS FAO's sticky thread ? It maybe be of help

.

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:43 pm

I always lock the flywheel first. I use a length of heavy gauge piano wire bent to the right shape to save removing the starter. Then the camshaft and pump sprockets.

The camshaft won't move much anyway as you release the belt, so long as you have a timing mark painted on you'll be ok.

tim · Post by **tim** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:43 am

Rxbx - hi. Yes, I read all five pages before starting the job but there is nothing there that bears any relation to this particular problem. It would seem to be a factory error or omission which I have to live with, so it looks like I will have to make do with paint marks, Should be OK. I got comprehensively hypothermed yesterday and it's even worse today, so I ain't rushing. Why do these things never happen in summer?

tim · Post by **tim** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:53 pm

Bolt problem solved; a bizarre one-off. and not the fault of Citroen. I atacked it this a.m. wearing two pairs of the wife's tights (it's -2 today, and a man needs a hobby) and with new batteries in the penlight torch. I looked VERY closely and under a patina of dirt which I scraped off I could then see the faint outline of a sheared bolt stub. Guess how that happened.... as the frost formed on the bonnet I used various tricks I've learnt and eventually the broken stub twiddled out and I was able whack in the appropriate locking bolt so - hurrah, everything is now locked up as it should be. I don't regret removing the starter as I could then easily see the hole for the flywheel; Jeremy in FAQs is right, 8mm won't fit. I settled for an old rocker stud from a Triumph Tiger 100, just over 7mm,a junior hacksaw is only 6.5mm and too sloppy for my taste. I also took the pulley off; It took 3 minutes and means I can see a lot better. Tomorrow I'll shift the tensioner - any suggestions as to how to back it off as I can't see a way of getting a 3/8 ratchet in there. Or should I just unbolt the lot and give it a full overhaul, as it's been standing for some years and may have rusted up as per the FAQs one.

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:32 pm

I usually back it off with the blade of a long screwdriver or similar, once backed off you need to nip the tension bolt to hold it off untill you're ready to re-tension.

Try spinning the pulleys and waggle them from side-to-side to check for free-play and bearing noise. If all seems well, re-assemble.