Running on cooking oil

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Kitch
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Running on cooking oil

Post by Kitch » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:02 pm

Diesel engines.....what are the facts......can you just pop it in and go or does it need to be dilluted first?

Is it really much cheaper? And what are the legalities?

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Post by Stewart (oily!) » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:14 pm

Thorny, its taxable, it rots the seals in lucas pumps but not bosch ones, slight smell of chips! a little too thick so best used as an additive, plus side the engines run very smoothly, enhances lubrication of components.
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Post by cavmad » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:17 pm

Trawl through the technical pages on here Kitch, it`s been a much vaulted subject! Meanwhile (dependant on pump) you CAN run on vegetable oil neat or blended.
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Post by Kitch » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:26 pm

Not sure what pump the 19RD has got, but its returning to the road soon and this looks like a good idea.....I never tried it before.

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Post by sleepy0905 » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:05 pm

I have been running on it for over 2 years with a lucas pump no problems i just pour it in the tank with the diesel in winter a 70% diesel 30 % oil and in summer a 50/50 mix but i have run on a 90% oil mix with no problems.
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Post by DavidRutherford » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:51 pm

You do have to be very careful though, as if you are caught with untaxed fuel in your car, you're in deep poo. It's as bad as running on red diesel.

Also, the Biodiesel industry is desperately trying to make a name for itself, and is lobbying the government to reduce the tax on biodiesel and SVO. If people are caught using the stuff unlicenced, it makes their case look bad.

Use it, but please pay the appropriate duty on it. Registering with Customs and Excise is easy.
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Post by Kitch » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:02 pm

Whats red diesel?

With all due respect, I don't expect more than 5% of the population using the stuff are declaring it. Kinda defeats the point, unless tax isn't very much? Buts a high percentage ain't it?

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Post by DavidRutherford » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:18 pm

Red diesel is untaxed (well, not subject to Excise Duty, still subject to VAT) diesel fuel as used by farmers for off-road diesel engines, like tractors etc. It's also allowed on the road for a very limited distance from the farm base (to get to other fields etc). It's very similar to road diesel (not quite so many detergents etc.) and has a red dye in it.

If you are caught with red diesel in a road vehicle (and theoretically in a road licenced vehicle even off the road... but this is ultra rare) then you are likely to loose the vehicle, and be fined a massive amount of money. Truck operators who have been found with Red in their main tanks (it IS allowed in fridge diesel engines) have been known to loose vehicles and loose their operator licence.

Veg oil is in exactly the same category. The difference is that you can't buy "Duty paid" veg oil, only the equivalent of "Red diesel" as unlicenced fuel. This means you MUST declare to customs and excise the amount of fuel you "convert" from being veg oil into a road fuel.

I know there are lots of people using veg oil in various mixes without paying the duty, but this will bring the Biodiesel industry into disrepute (if you're found out!), and is also a big risk. A few years ago a number of people in south wales were found to be using veg oil in various different diesel vechicles, and they were all siezed, crushed and big fines were handed out. Is it worth the risk?

I've used the odd litre or two in the past as an injector cleaner, but this was probably under 5% mix. I do intend to do a full 2-tank conversion at some point in the future, and will be registering.

Have a look here: http://www.bio-power.co.uk
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Post by sleepy0905 » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:13 pm

It is not that easy to register and pay tax i have been down that route and different tax people and offices give different advice and the form is a joke plus they cannot decide what is the correct duty amount this issue is covered on this board somewhere if you do a search i spent a week talking to different people as everyone kept saying its not there responsibility eventually i got a form and that was a joke so i decided bollo**s to them

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Post by Ian_Fearn » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:41 pm

I'm writing my dissertation on BioFuels at the moment.

The research completed by organisations, individuals and the government (not UK!) is unbelievable.

So far my research from the UK shows the Biodiesel, (which chaps is different to waste or new vegetable oil) industry to be really struggling against the British Government to give them the tax breaks these ultra low polluting fuels deserve.

The USA is completely different, their goverment is investing millions in Biofuel technology.

There are quite a few ways to go about using vegetable oil. The least attractive to me is simply chucking veggie oil with diesel in your tank. It gives savings but to me i'm still paying for fossil fuels which i despise.

In order to produce real Bio Diesel you need to have been through the transeterification process by which you alter the molecular struction of the base oil by mixing it with a catalyst and an alcohol.

There is loads of info on the net about producing Biodiesel although you do need some basic equipment.

I've got loads of biofuel information should anybody need anything. I've written 15000 words on it so far :shock:
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Post by sleepy0905 » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:54 pm

I looked into the transeterification process and the whole process is scary and the chemicals needed make a very good Bomb if you get it wrong, so i shyed away from that i did find a very good website which showed some horrific deaths and injuries in america by people making there own biodiesel I also am not a chemist so i backed down, After all i was banned from chemistry at school after i managed to destroy the science block after mixing a bit of this and that and the other while teacher wasnt looking luckily no one was injured. :(
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Post by DavidRutherford » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:02 am

Amazing really that the USA are actually ahead of us in respect of legalising bio-fuels.

Portsmouth university was doing research into bio-fuels and vegetable oil combustion over 25 years ago. Ridiculous that it hasn't gone very much further. As an ex-student of there, I've read a lot of the research that was done, and spoken at length with the staff who were part of the research. Apparently there was some conversation with the government, but the general feeling was that they couldn't give a damn, and were making plenty of money out of fossil fuels thanks-all-the-same.

Personally, I'm going for a 2-tank system. With transesterified bio-diesel in one tank for startup and shutdown, and heated vegetable oil in the other tank for main running. I'm also going to see what I can do with Linseed oil, as my local farmer grows acres and acres of the stuff every year for subsidy, and then lets it rot. He's said I can have the lot if I harvest it myself. (and I can borrow his combined harvester to do so)... I recon on a yield of about 20'000 litres each year.... anyone want some free fuel in exchange for some help to harvest it?
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Post by cavmad » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:39 am

I`d totally agree with the form filling malarkey. I`ve given up as it`s just so confusing and no-one seems 100% certain of the amount of tax. I`ll give it one more go and see what happens.
The fines for untaxed fuel would be £500 `on the spot` and if you ain`t got it on you you`re car will get towed away and then you`ve got the charge for that plus storage charges. That`s just for cars btw, if you have a van or a truck you`re going to be right in the sh*t and no mistaking.
Having said that I`m the sure the more crafty could work out some way to dodge the fine if caught.
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Post by jeremy » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:39 am

I find it hard to believe that biofuel isn't being actively pursued by big business.

The actual product itself would seem to be a lovely target for the genetically modified researchers - the target being an oil that could be used straight from the plant - ie had a waxing point similar to DERV. Tales of 'frankenstein Foods' have held this business back for good reasons but if the public thought that their fuel would be cheaper then I think that opposition would evaporate overnight as this is of more tangible benefit than for example disease free crops. - just look at how the opposition to neuclear power seems to be going in a matter of a few weeks!

In any event the present stuff can be processed relatively easily and I would have thought was a net consumer of CO2 as only the seeds will produce oil and the rest of the plant will consume CO2 as it grows. Its economically important - as it either conserves our oil reserves, or the world's reserves depending on how much we import/export. Europe as a whole is an importer of oil and has a general problem of agricultural overproduction.

How much more useful than paying farmers setaside payments to look at their bare fields to encourage the production of fuel crops - and with luck wean the whole lot off subsidies.

What surprises me is the role of the oil companies - OK you say they are committed to mineral oil - but are they really? In reality they are seen as doing well if they make money and the shareholders couldn't care where that money comes from. Vegetable oil is cheap to produce when compared to the cost of drilling in the sea - and they don't even have to pay for the machinery to produce it as the farmer already has it - and its relatively cheap when compared to drilling costs. To be honest I'd have thought that several % could have been added straight away with possibly only a minor adjustment of the mineral distillation process to compensate for the higher waxing point.

Now wouldn't this be a vote winner for someone?

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Post by DavidRutherford » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:01 pm

careful Jeremy... that sounds both sensible and wise.... You'll be making the Government look bad!

oops! too late.

As far as I know, the main reason big business hasn't looked into it is because of cheap mineral oil, and high taxes making the whole thing uneconomical.

But you're dead right.. the government don't seem to have the first idea about this.
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