55bhp 2.0 HDI - any thoughts?

Kitch · Post by **Kitch** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:29 pm

I'll copy what I wrote on another site. Not really in to diesels and don't know much about them. People on PH have suggested wastegate jammed open, but not sure how to test that.

This is my post:

I have a 2004 Picasso 2.0HDI 90 which I've suspected for sometime is poorly. I confirmed this enough to satsify my suspicions over the weekend by strapping the beast onto a rolling road (the accuracy of which I'm happy with) and recording around 40bhp at the wheels - it gave a corrected est. of 55.8bhp at the fly, around 35bhp down on the 90 it left France with! Clearly something is not right, and I wondered if we had any common-rail diesel gurus on here?

The car runs quite happily with no real symptoms of a problem. It's just god-awful slow. At light throttle openings I would say it's performing as I would expect it to, but as soon as the revs climb past 2k rpm and the throttle opening gets near 50%, it just doesn't seem to give any more. There's no flat spot as such, nothing that seems wrong. It does accelerate, just very very slowly. It's getting to the point you would need to floor it to maintain 70mph up a hill on a motorway.

Steps I've taken so far include checking for fault codes. I do have a reoccuring code of P1352, which relates to the glow-plug circuit, either the plugs themselves or the relay unit. Generally the car starts fine in the morning, though recently it has started to not catch first time. Otherwise there are no other codes stored. I don't want to go clutching at straws and tackling these issues hoping it'll fix my snail of a car.

As suggested on other forums I've cleaned the MAF and disconnected the EGR (both via the vacuum control unit and the plug). I was advised the EGRs can play up and they're perfectly happy to run without. Being that the car isn't exactly my P&J I don't mind experimenting with it. I have been wondering if the EGR is jammed open - could this be the cause of my gutless diesel? Some people advise removing the EGR valve, making a plate to blank the EGR valve off and refitting it. I've also started to wonder if the cat is blocked, but I was under the understanding that diesel cats are metal, not ceramic. This may well be tosh.

To me, it feels like it's almost losing boost. The turbo is quite vocal, whistling away from very low revs and whooshing away as the revs climb. But I've had a loose boost pipe before on an old TD I had, and that sounded broken. This doesn't. I've checked every boost pipe I can see and have found nothing. It's not smoking excessively either, which I'd expect it to do (unless the ECU senses boost pressure aswell as engine speed and MAF etc to correct fuelling?). It has no intercooler either. I wonder is there a way to detect a boost leak, or highlight any weakspots?

Any advice appreciated, before I jack it in, part ex it and go back to petrols!

Mike E (uk) · Post by **Mike E (uk)** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:09 pm

I thaught all Picassos were like that, you're probably the 1st owner to notice.

Seriously though, does sound like a car I knew of which had a blocked cat.

Mike

PS are we going to have a RR day as I think you mentioned a while back?

Way2go · Post by **Way2go** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:53 pm

I'm no expert on Diesels either but does it have a Diesel Particulate Filter?
I've heard these DPF's choke up when doing a succession of short runs without any high speed running mixed in. A run (of some extended distance) above 60 mph can rejuvenate it but apparently if this is left too long before performing it, the thing can be FUBAR and expensive to replace.

Post by **mat_fenwick** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:10 am

I'm no expert either, but the suggestion on PH sounds plausible. I.e. the turbo is spinning, but diverting the boost to atmosphere. I'd be almost certain the ECU measures boost pressure to determine fuelling, as my understanding is that the common rail diesels use electronically controlled injectors like current petrol engines - so the ECU needs to know everything to calculate injector duration.

To diagnose, how about a cheap boost gauge temporarily plumbed in? Even to the extent of running it through an open window. It'll only cost you £15 or so and might be the only Picasso with one! I take it your fault code reader doesn't do live data?

citronut · Post by **citronut** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:28 am

the HDI 90's dont have a FAP only the 110 and upwards do have one,

i saw a TD XANT that sounded fine and had no get up and go at all,

the owner was told the turbo was shot and it was going to gost around £700 to sort,

i had a bit of a look at it but couldnt see onything obvious wrong,

as he went to drive away it sonuded as though it didnt have an air filter (very throaty),

so i had a closer look and found an intercooler pipe was not on fully or tight,

refited and it was a diferent car,

have you run this by the FCF

regards malcolm

Vanny · Post by **Vanny** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:44 pm

If the waste gate is stuck open, there will be very little boost.

You could try taking the high pressure turbo outlet pipe off and running it (it will suck up no pressured air, so drive it somewhere clean!), if there is no difference then its the turbo at fault. If it becomes even more gutless then the problem is else where.

Does it ever feel like it has power? Even momentarily? No power diesels are more often than not caused by duff EGR valves that have stuck open, but usually the fault is intermittent and normally occurs on load (ie 80+ on the motorway).

I've recently driven a 3 litre v6 diesel that had blown a high pressure pipe, it was still drive able, but very slow to accelerate, and the turbo was rather whiney, so you might get lucky and find its just a loose or split pipe.

Kitch · Post by **Kitch** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:14 pm

Some good suggestions, cheers.

Truth be told I don't know how well (or badly) one of these is supposed to shift. With only 90bhp it'll never be a rocket ship, but with 55bhp it's pretty lethargic! On the flip side, if you drive it with light throttle openings it feels pretty much as I'd expect. It's only if you try and squeeze some more speed out of it that you get the issues.

Some good ideas to test the theory - I'll have a play.

Cheers

Post by **mat_fenwick** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:13 pm

There was one as a pool car in my last job, and it felt slow(er than a standard BX TD). Didn't really feel like a TD, as there was never an kick in the back when the turbo spools up. So don't expect miracles, although you have proved on the RR that something is badly wrong.

Vanny's idea of simply disconnecting the turbo sounds best/cheapest.

Caffiend · Post by **Caffiend** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:29 pm

No expert, but experience of my Xsara (non Picasso though):

Hatch with 2.0 turbo engine which apparently has 90 horses (or thereabouts). My ex owned one as well, so this is the second I've driven. Despite PAS, it feels heavy and not nearly as manouverable as the much nippier TZD (now on my 2nd one of those as well).

I've never driven an n/a Xsara, but mine doesn't feel like a turbo - as Mat has said, you can't really feel that turbo kick in. It seems happiest at 2-2.5K revs or so and miserable when revved hard - need for a light throttle is perhaps just one of the Xsara 'features'?

Although there is something wrong with yours if it's got that low, I don't think it'll ever feel as quick as the BX turbos, although the bhp is the same.

Oilyspanner · Post by **Oilyspanner** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:24 pm

Fitting a boost gauge taught me a lot, Xuds seem to begin making boost just above idle, there is rarely any "kick" and they still dont like revving, the main benefits being mid range torque, I have repaired a HDI 110 motor with a broken turbo spindle, ie not driving half of the turbo, it still made a turbo whistle even though the exhaust driven turbine looked like it had been turned down in a lathe, worth remembering that the turbo is interchangeable between HDI 110 and 90s the only apparent difference being the exhaust outlet diameter, a part that can easily be swapped from the original.

Kitch · Post by **Kitch** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:34 pm

Some interesting points. Maybe I should start tuning the Toaster!

I quite like the idea of being able to pull 110bhp or so from it and a gutload of torque, while being able to make a Napier Deltic look like it doesn't know what clag is

*goes to see how much cheap boost gauges are on fleabay........

Vanny · Post by **Vanny** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:56 pm

I wouldn't bother tuning a 90bhp, it wont do much more no matter how much you squeeze it. The 110bhp 1.6 16v HDi bloody flies in a Picarse-o. Dad has had both, the 90bhp struggled to get up the drive, the 110bhp (with wider, same make tyre) could wheel spin from bottom to top starting in 3rd, POWAHHHHHHH

Before you go buying a boosty guage, consider how on earth your going to fit it! It's pretty easy to put a 'T' into a BX where everything is accessible, but i think it will be a tad harder on the plasti-clad picasso engine bay!

Oilyspanner · Post by **Oilyspanner** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:21 pm

I would plumb a boost gauge into the plenum/inlet casting, drill/tap or Araldite.

Kitch · Post by **Kitch** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:09 pm

I've found a few of these "chip tuning boxes" which claim to take it to around 110bhp and 180lb ft, but how much is BS I'm not sure. Lots of positive reviews though.

If I do go with it, plan is to decat, remove EGR completely, get this turbo working properly and other bits I learn along the way. If I don't keep it, I'll sell it

Stuart - drill and tap boss into inlet manifold? Access is a bit shit, and it is indeed plastic-tastic. Any other hoses I can plumb it into, like on a petrol?

Oilyspanner · Post by **Oilyspanner** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:24 am

Kitch wrote:I've found a few of these "chip tuning boxes" which claim to take it to around 110bhp and 180lb ft, but how much is BS I'm not sure. Lots of positive reviews though.

If I do go with it, plan is to decat, remove EGR completely, get this turbo working properly and other bits I learn along the way. If I don't keep it, I'll sell it

Stuart - drill and tap boss into inlet manifold? Access is a bit shit, and it is indeed plastic-tastic. Any other hoses I can plumb it into, like on a petrol?

Without having the car in front of me I cannot say, but anywhere in the pressurised side of the inlet tract will work, my gauge was £25 from demon tweeks BTW.