Hello Team and greetings from West France
Can any of you very helpful Ladies or Gents give me some advice please - I have a leaking hydraulic return (low pressure?) system on my 1991 BX Athena and need to replace the Octopus thing, I think you call it.
Oil is dropping on the ground behind the engine when I park and no doubt leaking when going along.
How difficult a job is it and is it something that can be done fairly easily by an amateur?
Could someone please talk me through the procedure if you have the time?
Any help greatly appreciated.
Ian
Leaking hydraulic oil
Here is something that I wrote several years ago - although I suggest that you do a forum search as you will find a wealth of experience.
Where are you in SW France? I am in Monpellier for the next 2 months and may be having a weekend away in the Toulouse area at some point.
The Octopus! Some tips to be read in conjunction with Anders guide.
I was going to scrap my BX Turbo as it had suddenly developed a thirst for LHM and the leak was obviously from the Octopus area, but I could not readily identify the exact source of the leak. So in the end for the sake of £30 I took the plunge, bought an Octopus from GSF and decided to have a go. I do have the advantage of a pit, but in my younger days could probably done it with the car lifted on ramps under the front of the body.
Before staring clean off the underside as much as possible with a degreasant and a good pressure wash, it makes working so much easier. First get several copies of the colored pictures from Anders guide and put them in plastic sleeves so they can be used under the car. Read and understand exactly what he says, it is invaluable.
Removal of the rhs drive shaft is a MUST, and also the rear engine mount bracket. How anybody can the job without doing this I will never know. Measure how much gearbox oil comes out so that you can top up without overfilling.
Before getting the old octopus out it was obvious that I had a small leak from where the front HC stud fitted to the octopus rubber pipe, but there was also another well hidden leak. Once the octopus was out it was an obvious split of the rubber at the “root” of the pipe on the octopus feeding the lhs 4mm plastic pipe. (Not the normal place, (which is the root for bent pipe for the front hc). How you could identify this as the source of the leak without removing it I do not know!
All the pipes under the car are obvious as to where they route so it is not worth labelling them as suggested. However label the pipes that run back to the reservoir so that they can go back to correct points if only to make life easier for the next owner to diagnose problems. DO NOT do as I did , use masking tape with ball point pen! LHM dissolves the writing!!
Now for how I cheated and made the job easier. If you are a purist and wish your car to be original stop reading NOW.
The 2 plastic pipes (4mm and 5mm) that run to the rear of the car are almost impossible to refit into the octopus with any degree of certainty. Cut these rigid pipes (Staggered by 5cm) about 30cm back from the front cross member, fit the short pieces to the octopus off the car, and rejoin using joiners as below.
The long rubber pipe to the front lhs can similarly be cut and joined to make fitting easier.
I did not use Anders technique for the both the HC connections (octopus and operational flow return) as the life of the car will be limited any way, but if you are planning on keeping the car for some time it is undoubtably worth doing while you have it in pieces.
I used an alternative route back to the reservoir, running vertically up in the rear rh corner of the engine bay, and extending the octopus returns to join the existing pipes.
Remember the octopus is only a very low pressure return system so push fit joins are satisfactory, use ties or fuel clips on joiners if you are in any doubt about the fit.
Joiners, have to hand some 1/8 inch or 3mm ID fuel pipe for joining 4mm plastic pipes, some 4.5mm ID fuel pipe for joining 5mm plastic pipes and use citroen 3.5mm steel pipe as an internal joiner for the rubber octopus pipes. Ensure a good length of insertion to create a good seal. Using pipes with a ready made pip is useful if you can get some from a scrap car.
In reality I found the job much easier than I expected, although somebody who claims to do it in 2.5 hrs must have done it a few time before!
If I was doing it as a long term project I think I would go down the route of making up all copper pipe with soldered joins and creating a routing thro the available space where the windsreen wiper etc fits, and then piping out to the reservoir.
I hope somebody finds this useful and it encourages them to keep another BX on the road. Moderators feel to modify this as you think fir if you wish to post it as how to guide.
One final question, WHY does the octopus not get made as 2 separate pieces, my understanding is that there is no cross linking, so why not cut it into 2???
and something from my archives with a couple of useful links - unfortunately I cannot remember who to give the credit to for this section - can somebody advise (it is probably Anders original guide?)?
BX return hose complex (Octopus) replacing.
Here is my suggestions on how to replace the BX LHM return hoses - known as the Octopus.
From experience with 6 different BX'es over the past 14 y's - I have to say that the job replacing the Octopus is not that scary as reputed.
It's more a nuisance really - than a complex job.
The BX Octopus is reputed for leaks - once the car is past 10-12 y's old. Not because of bad design - but simply because any rubber material detoriates over the y's when exposed to harsh environment from engine & roads.
There are in fact only 2 valid arguments using rubber hoses for this purpose : material cost & ease of fitting. Any solid/stainless piping would be a lot more expensive & fiddly during production.
You may find a schematic on the Octopus hose run here :
http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~ynar/bxorg_a ... 5/m15.html
Unfortunately the above link is dead, but Bob Smith has a good Citroen document here :
http://www.rwbsmith.plus.com/citroen2/H ... aulics.pdf
(page 18 on in this document)
This schematic shows (by colour code on the japanese site) which hoses are part of the Octopus - and which hoses are not.
I suggest you first try locate precisely where the leak is - as there is 1 certain known problem spot.
Have an assistant in car - engine idle - keeping front wheels turned to RH end stop.
Prepare a floodlight - then observe from RH wheel arch rear/under the engine - exactly on the HC - while your assistant first set car to max height - then to min height.
While the car is lowering - observe if LHM is spraying out from the HC.
If this happens - then it's NOT the Octopus leaking.
Instead it's the working return flow hose leaking from it's location on the HC stud - because the hose is split in the sharp bend here.
This hose is NOT part of the Octopus return hose complex - but a separate hose.
At the reservoir - this hose is 1 of the 2 smaller hoses - moulded on to the next large dia return hose on the reservoir (the largest hose on reservoir being the pump feed).
The OTHER of these 2 small hoses - is the similar return hose from the rear HC. This in turn is connected to a steelpipe on the rear of the front subframe - as the return from rear HC is in fact a steelpipe on it's longitudinal run under the car.
This next-large hose with the 2 members moulded on is available separately as spare - known as the "Small Octopus".
These are the blue coloured hoses in the above mentioned schematic.
In some locations of the planet - this Small Octopus is ONLY available for NON servosteering fitted BX'es (like BX14 & BX16). No problem - as this simply means the larger of the hoses are that long it can reach from reservoir to the PR's return stud.
You may prefer a lasting DIY repair - even having much higher reliability (which I allways do - when this problem appears) :
Skip this hose - i.e. cut it some 4-8 inches from where it moulds to the large hose. Instead unscrew the stud from the HC - and fit a lenght of standard 3.5mm hydraulic steelpipe - with pipe union nut & seal into the HC's stud-port. The pipe should be some 1.2m long.
Then join the pipe into the original hose at reservoir.
HOWEVER - if the above does not apply to your leak problem - then it's likely the Octopus that is past it's era of usefull service.
Replacing the Octopus is dreadfull for 2 reasons : immense amount of oily dirt & lack of workspace.
I recommand to run/lift the front wheels on to ramps (or blocks) for this work - if a servicepit is not available. Remember safety blocks on rear wheels - in case the front wheel blocks/ramps moves.
Start the job using engine cleaner all over on the subframe & adjoining area - repeat the process untill the whole area is sensible to work on.
Let it dry - evt. move the car to a new dry work area - or you may prefer delaying the job to next day.
Working on clean parts is so much more encouraging - now concentrate on gaining adequate workspace :
Disjoint the exhaust downpipe flexible coupling - then remove the horizontal & vertical bolt & nut holding the lower engine support bracket. Remove the support bracket.
Clamp a block of wood in a suitable location - to force bottom of engine forwards. Then tow the engine to the crossmember under radiator & remove the block.
The rest is fiddly work removing the Octopus complex. Note lots of dripping from the hosing will occur.
Recover the short plastic pipes - noting where/how they fit - and clean them before re-use. The Octopus does not contain new plastic pipes.
NOTE 1 : (LHD vehicles) : alongside the front edge of the subframe the hoses runs in a larger plastic hose. Here you have a slightly larger dia rubber hose - which runs from the Brake Doseur (master) valve to the reservoir.
This hose is NOT part of the Octopus - but may certainly be in need of replacement. You may then use 2m of standard fuel hosing - internal dia of 4.5mm.
NOTE 2 : The short run hoses from chassis edge both sides (front strut returns) are NOT part of the Octopus. If parts of the old Octopus hosing is in good shape (often the case) - then use this for replacement fittings. Otherwise use standard fuel hose 3mm internal dia. There are 2 of these some 0.15m run.
NOTE 3 : There is NO need to prime the pump or do the Citaerobics when job done. All these hoses are low pressure return hoses - where air is "allowed". Likewise it's NOT necessary to depressurise the hydraulic system.
NOTE 4 : the Octopus is the same part for the WHOLE range of BX production. No matter year/model/variant or servosteering fitted.
TIP 1 : before removing ANY hose - identify the hose fittings using cheap coulored plastic zippers - to both studs & hose ends.
Once the old Octpus is out - copy the coulored zippers to the new Octopus.
Don't worry re-using same colours - as the hoses tends to group in long runs & short runs - groups located very differently. You then simply need to identify each hose in a group.
TIP 2 : grease ALL rubber joins with LHM - makes a world of difference fitting them. In bothering cases use standard (bearing) grease - especially the plastic pipes can be a nuisance to push fully home into the rubber.
TIP 3 : the short hose from Octopus lump fitting on to the (small) front HC stud - I found VERY advantageous to extend using 0.2m length of good hose from the old Octopus. Join hoses using a 40mm curved piece of standard 3.5mm hydraulic steelpipe. It's MUCH easier to fit the hose on to the stud then.
I suspect this would especially apply to RHD models - as the steering pinion gear is located very close to the HC on these variants.
[/color]
Where are you in SW France? I am in Monpellier for the next 2 months and may be having a weekend away in the Toulouse area at some point.
The Octopus! Some tips to be read in conjunction with Anders guide.
I was going to scrap my BX Turbo as it had suddenly developed a thirst for LHM and the leak was obviously from the Octopus area, but I could not readily identify the exact source of the leak. So in the end for the sake of £30 I took the plunge, bought an Octopus from GSF and decided to have a go. I do have the advantage of a pit, but in my younger days could probably done it with the car lifted on ramps under the front of the body.
Before staring clean off the underside as much as possible with a degreasant and a good pressure wash, it makes working so much easier. First get several copies of the colored pictures from Anders guide and put them in plastic sleeves so they can be used under the car. Read and understand exactly what he says, it is invaluable.
Removal of the rhs drive shaft is a MUST, and also the rear engine mount bracket. How anybody can the job without doing this I will never know. Measure how much gearbox oil comes out so that you can top up without overfilling.
Before getting the old octopus out it was obvious that I had a small leak from where the front HC stud fitted to the octopus rubber pipe, but there was also another well hidden leak. Once the octopus was out it was an obvious split of the rubber at the “root” of the pipe on the octopus feeding the lhs 4mm plastic pipe. (Not the normal place, (which is the root for bent pipe for the front hc). How you could identify this as the source of the leak without removing it I do not know!
All the pipes under the car are obvious as to where they route so it is not worth labelling them as suggested. However label the pipes that run back to the reservoir so that they can go back to correct points if only to make life easier for the next owner to diagnose problems. DO NOT do as I did , use masking tape with ball point pen! LHM dissolves the writing!!
Now for how I cheated and made the job easier. If you are a purist and wish your car to be original stop reading NOW.
The 2 plastic pipes (4mm and 5mm) that run to the rear of the car are almost impossible to refit into the octopus with any degree of certainty. Cut these rigid pipes (Staggered by 5cm) about 30cm back from the front cross member, fit the short pieces to the octopus off the car, and rejoin using joiners as below.
The long rubber pipe to the front lhs can similarly be cut and joined to make fitting easier.
I did not use Anders technique for the both the HC connections (octopus and operational flow return) as the life of the car will be limited any way, but if you are planning on keeping the car for some time it is undoubtably worth doing while you have it in pieces.
I used an alternative route back to the reservoir, running vertically up in the rear rh corner of the engine bay, and extending the octopus returns to join the existing pipes.
Remember the octopus is only a very low pressure return system so push fit joins are satisfactory, use ties or fuel clips on joiners if you are in any doubt about the fit.
Joiners, have to hand some 1/8 inch or 3mm ID fuel pipe for joining 4mm plastic pipes, some 4.5mm ID fuel pipe for joining 5mm plastic pipes and use citroen 3.5mm steel pipe as an internal joiner for the rubber octopus pipes. Ensure a good length of insertion to create a good seal. Using pipes with a ready made pip is useful if you can get some from a scrap car.
In reality I found the job much easier than I expected, although somebody who claims to do it in 2.5 hrs must have done it a few time before!
If I was doing it as a long term project I think I would go down the route of making up all copper pipe with soldered joins and creating a routing thro the available space where the windsreen wiper etc fits, and then piping out to the reservoir.
I hope somebody finds this useful and it encourages them to keep another BX on the road. Moderators feel to modify this as you think fir if you wish to post it as how to guide.
One final question, WHY does the octopus not get made as 2 separate pieces, my understanding is that there is no cross linking, so why not cut it into 2???
and something from my archives with a couple of useful links - unfortunately I cannot remember who to give the credit to for this section - can somebody advise (it is probably Anders original guide?)?
BX return hose complex (Octopus) replacing.
Here is my suggestions on how to replace the BX LHM return hoses - known as the Octopus.
From experience with 6 different BX'es over the past 14 y's - I have to say that the job replacing the Octopus is not that scary as reputed.
It's more a nuisance really - than a complex job.
The BX Octopus is reputed for leaks - once the car is past 10-12 y's old. Not because of bad design - but simply because any rubber material detoriates over the y's when exposed to harsh environment from engine & roads.
There are in fact only 2 valid arguments using rubber hoses for this purpose : material cost & ease of fitting. Any solid/stainless piping would be a lot more expensive & fiddly during production.
You may find a schematic on the Octopus hose run here :
http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~ynar/bxorg_a ... 5/m15.html
Unfortunately the above link is dead, but Bob Smith has a good Citroen document here :
http://www.rwbsmith.plus.com/citroen2/H ... aulics.pdf
(page 18 on in this document)
This schematic shows (by colour code on the japanese site) which hoses are part of the Octopus - and which hoses are not.
I suggest you first try locate precisely where the leak is - as there is 1 certain known problem spot.
Have an assistant in car - engine idle - keeping front wheels turned to RH end stop.
Prepare a floodlight - then observe from RH wheel arch rear/under the engine - exactly on the HC - while your assistant first set car to max height - then to min height.
While the car is lowering - observe if LHM is spraying out from the HC.
If this happens - then it's NOT the Octopus leaking.
Instead it's the working return flow hose leaking from it's location on the HC stud - because the hose is split in the sharp bend here.
This hose is NOT part of the Octopus return hose complex - but a separate hose.
At the reservoir - this hose is 1 of the 2 smaller hoses - moulded on to the next large dia return hose on the reservoir (the largest hose on reservoir being the pump feed).
The OTHER of these 2 small hoses - is the similar return hose from the rear HC. This in turn is connected to a steelpipe on the rear of the front subframe - as the return from rear HC is in fact a steelpipe on it's longitudinal run under the car.
This next-large hose with the 2 members moulded on is available separately as spare - known as the "Small Octopus".
These are the blue coloured hoses in the above mentioned schematic.
In some locations of the planet - this Small Octopus is ONLY available for NON servosteering fitted BX'es (like BX14 & BX16). No problem - as this simply means the larger of the hoses are that long it can reach from reservoir to the PR's return stud.
You may prefer a lasting DIY repair - even having much higher reliability (which I allways do - when this problem appears) :
Skip this hose - i.e. cut it some 4-8 inches from where it moulds to the large hose. Instead unscrew the stud from the HC - and fit a lenght of standard 3.5mm hydraulic steelpipe - with pipe union nut & seal into the HC's stud-port. The pipe should be some 1.2m long.
Then join the pipe into the original hose at reservoir.
HOWEVER - if the above does not apply to your leak problem - then it's likely the Octopus that is past it's era of usefull service.
Replacing the Octopus is dreadfull for 2 reasons : immense amount of oily dirt & lack of workspace.
I recommand to run/lift the front wheels on to ramps (or blocks) for this work - if a servicepit is not available. Remember safety blocks on rear wheels - in case the front wheel blocks/ramps moves.
Start the job using engine cleaner all over on the subframe & adjoining area - repeat the process untill the whole area is sensible to work on.
Let it dry - evt. move the car to a new dry work area - or you may prefer delaying the job to next day.
Working on clean parts is so much more encouraging - now concentrate on gaining adequate workspace :
Disjoint the exhaust downpipe flexible coupling - then remove the horizontal & vertical bolt & nut holding the lower engine support bracket. Remove the support bracket.
Clamp a block of wood in a suitable location - to force bottom of engine forwards. Then tow the engine to the crossmember under radiator & remove the block.
The rest is fiddly work removing the Octopus complex. Note lots of dripping from the hosing will occur.
Recover the short plastic pipes - noting where/how they fit - and clean them before re-use. The Octopus does not contain new plastic pipes.
NOTE 1 : (LHD vehicles) : alongside the front edge of the subframe the hoses runs in a larger plastic hose. Here you have a slightly larger dia rubber hose - which runs from the Brake Doseur (master) valve to the reservoir.
This hose is NOT part of the Octopus - but may certainly be in need of replacement. You may then use 2m of standard fuel hosing - internal dia of 4.5mm.
NOTE 2 : The short run hoses from chassis edge both sides (front strut returns) are NOT part of the Octopus. If parts of the old Octopus hosing is in good shape (often the case) - then use this for replacement fittings. Otherwise use standard fuel hose 3mm internal dia. There are 2 of these some 0.15m run.
NOTE 3 : There is NO need to prime the pump or do the Citaerobics when job done. All these hoses are low pressure return hoses - where air is "allowed". Likewise it's NOT necessary to depressurise the hydraulic system.
NOTE 4 : the Octopus is the same part for the WHOLE range of BX production. No matter year/model/variant or servosteering fitted.
TIP 1 : before removing ANY hose - identify the hose fittings using cheap coulored plastic zippers - to both studs & hose ends.
Once the old Octpus is out - copy the coulored zippers to the new Octopus.
Don't worry re-using same colours - as the hoses tends to group in long runs & short runs - groups located very differently. You then simply need to identify each hose in a group.
TIP 2 : grease ALL rubber joins with LHM - makes a world of difference fitting them. In bothering cases use standard (bearing) grease - especially the plastic pipes can be a nuisance to push fully home into the rubber.
TIP 3 : the short hose from Octopus lump fitting on to the (small) front HC stud - I found VERY advantageous to extend using 0.2m length of good hose from the old Octopus. Join hoses using a 40mm curved piece of standard 3.5mm hydraulic steelpipe. It's MUCH easier to fit the hose on to the stud then.
I suspect this would especially apply to RHD models - as the steering pinion gear is located very close to the HC on these variants.
[/color]
-
Ian Stanbury
- New Member
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:00 pm
Thanks
Wow PMH, what a reply and thank you so much - I could almost change the whole thing whilst blindfolded!!
That really is a humdinger of a reply and will go straight into my top ten of my most helpful advice ever.
Please pm me with your address as I would like to send you a small gift for such wonderful help.
Just one small addition to your advice please, do I have to let off the pressure in the whole system or maybe its is not necessary as it is the return low pressure section of the system? And what about refilling the system once I have it all buttoned up again?
Thanks again
Ian
That really is a humdinger of a reply and will go straight into my top ten of my most helpful advice ever.
Please pm me with your address as I would like to send you a small gift for such wonderful help.
Just one small addition to your advice please, do I have to let off the pressure in the whole system or maybe its is not necessary as it is the return low pressure section of the system? And what about refilling the system once I have it all buttoned up again?
Thanks again
Ian
Just one small addition to your advice please, do I have to let off the pressure in the whole system or maybe its is not necessary as it is the return low pressure section of the system? And what about refilling the system once I have it all buttoned up again?
NOTE 3 : There is NO need to prime the pump or do the Citaerobics when job done. All these hoses are low pressure return hoses - where air is "allowed". Likewise it's NOT necessary to depressurise the hydraulic system.
NOTE 3 : There is NO need to prime the pump or do the Citaerobics when job done. All these hoses are low pressure return hoses - where air is "allowed". Likewise it's NOT necessary to depressurise the hydraulic system.
-
Defender110
- Over 2k
- Posts: 5917
- Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:02 pm
- Location: Harwood, Bolton
- My Cars: Land Rover Discovery Series 1 200tdi 3 door
Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5
2020 Fiat Panda cross 4x4 twin air. - x 27
/\ Didn't read the ''humdinger of a reply'' that well Ian 
Ref. top up, if changing the octopus it would be a good opportunity to re-new your old LHM and remove the tank for cleaning with the filters (an occasional service recommendation)
Ref. top up, if changing the octopus it would be a good opportunity to re-new your old LHM and remove the tank for cleaning with the filters (an occasional service recommendation)Kevan
1997 Mercedes C230 W202
2003 Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5 - Daily driver / hobby days and camping.
1993 Land Rover Discovery 200tdi Series 1 3 door - in need of TLC
2020 Fiat Panda 4x4 Cross Twin Air.
1997 Mercedes C230 W202
2003 Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5 - Daily driver / hobby days and camping.
1993 Land Rover Discovery 200tdi Series 1 3 door - in need of TLC
2020 Fiat Panda 4x4 Cross Twin Air.
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themildbunch
- BXpert
- Posts: 592
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:38 pm
- Location: Stroud, UK
- x 5
- Contact:
I recently 'repaired' the octopus --> front height corrector pipe which is the very common one to leak with some small bore plastic pipe and silicon pipe - The rest of my octopus seemed in pretty good condition and 2 months down the line it's still holding -
I can keep my spare octopus for now and it didn't take very long or need the driveshaft removed but you do need strong light and it's still a fiddle..
I can keep my spare octopus for now and it didn't take very long or need the driveshaft removed but you do need strong light and it's still a fiddle..
1988 BX 19 Gti 16v
1991 BX 17 TZD Estate
1991 BX 17 TZD Estate
1991 BX 17 TZD Estate
1991 BX 17 TZD Estate
on mine.. the left hand side flexi return pipe used to pop off! I think maybe it used to do this because of high pressure caused bt dodgy spheres.. but dont quote me on that - just something i was told.. any how recently it did it again, the end was getting a bit brittle, i cut it back quarter of an inch and slid it back on - was much tighter this time.
all i want for christmas is a dukla prague away kit
The fleet:
1992 Citroen BX 19TXD
1972 VW Camper
1969 Triumph Spitfire MKIII
1984 Kawasaki Z750
2002 Ibiza Seat
The fleet:
1992 Citroen BX 19TXD
1972 VW Camper
1969 Triumph Spitfire MKIII
1984 Kawasaki Z750
2002 Ibiza Seat
of you mean the strut/leg return these pop off when the strut/leg pressure seals are week, so letting to much pressure into the return system,nige wrote:on mine.. the left hand side flexi return pipe used to pop off! I think maybe it used to do this because of high pressure caused bt dodgy spheres.. but dont quote me on that - just something i was told.. any how recently it did it again, the end was getting a bit brittle, i cut it back quarter of an inch and slid it back on - was much tighter this time.
the spheres cant pop these pipes off,
although if the accumulator sphere is shot the plastic return that goes to the regulator can pop off,
regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special
no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special
no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
-
Dollywobbler
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