Gearbox Oil Filler

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electrokid
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by electrokid »

you do know if you over fill the gear box you risk contaminating the clutch with gear oil,
I proceeded with a bit more caution than I'd originally intended - I put in another 300ml including the re-seal. Then I took it around some of the M25 to work it around the gearbox and now the remaining whine in 4th is barely audible.

I dropped in to chat with Andy on the way home and he was of the same opinion as you Malcolm - no need to put any more oil in since the whine has pretty much gone anyway - but I'm sure it was almost completely out of oil.

It's going in either the end of next week or the week after (for driveshaft seals) - I want to know how short of oil it is / was so Andy is going to drain the gearbox into a measuring jug - I'm pretty sure that the only reason for the whine was it running out of oil and hopefully I'll have got away with it without damage to the gearbox.

IIRC the box should take 2 litres but Andy is aware of an update to that spec and fills with 2.5 litres.
As a side note, when i was putting my car back together this time last year, I found the cheapest place for a branded 75/80 oil was actually from the main stealer, and that was before getting discount on it!
I found that with LHM too - that particular stealer blotted his copybook as far as I was concerned and they have now left town anyway so I order spares from further away now. There is a more local dealer so I guess I should look them up.

from the other thread...
are there not two types of actuation on the be3, push or pull on the clutch?
There are aparently 2 types of actuating fork and therefore 2 types of thrust bearing - not sure about push / pull differences.
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by citronut »

electrokid wrote: IIRC the box should take 2 litres but Andy is aware of an update to that spec and fills with 2.5 litres.
were did he see this update of oil quantity as i have not head this,

the only capacity's o know of are some had 1.8lt's and later they had 2lt's,
this is also carried through the XANT's,
electrokid wrote: from the other thread...
are there not two types of actuation on the be3, push or pull on the clutch?
There are aparently 2 types of actuating fork and therefore 2 types of thrust bearing - not sure about push / pull differences.
i have never seen a pull clutch on any BX this was/is TD XANT's and the likes,

there are two different arangments to the cable termination at the gear box end though,
one goes to a right angled arm then a push rod going the the fork,

then the other goes straight to the fork,

regards malcolm
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also own
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by Birotor »

I wasn't going to say but... There would have been big trouble if I had found one of my staff in one of my submarines not following the laid down procedure - in this case "Fill till the oil level is just up to the FILL/level hole"; blindly filling by a quantity leads precisely to getting it wrong. You never fill ANY equipment by 'quantity' but always by a level indicator eg a level hole or dipstick unless the designer has specifically omitted the facility... and never overfill either - so the level plug should be removed!
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electrokid
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by electrokid »

were did he see this update of oil quantity as i have not head this,
He worked for a Citroen main dealer for many years.
You never fill ANY equipment by 'quantity' but always by a level indicator eg a level hole or dipstick
In this case the fill is very slow - filling through the top vent is much quicker and if the box has been fully drained and you know how much oil should be put in there's no problem with filling by quantity rather than to a level. Also in this case there is no fill-level-hole for the modified quantity of 2.5 litres so it's not possible to use level indication and only possible to fill by quantity.
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by citronut »

Brian
if there is/was an update the oil quantity for the BX why was is not carried over to the XANT

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
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electrokid
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by electrokid »

Don't know Malcolm - if I remember I'll ask Andy when I book the car in next week.

Went to Basingstoke today to pick up the gearbox from Jay - getting close to home third gear started being noisey again and when I stopped there was the smell of transmission oil - looks as though the leak is getting worse :shock:
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by citronut »

maybe the diff is throwing its toys out of its pram,

when my old NA diesel through its diff bits and pieces through the casing i got a strong smell of gear oil,
surprisingly the car still drove so i could get it to my work shop

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by Birotor »

Don't rate the argument! I have every Citroen Maintenance Bulletin and Workshop Manual amendment for the BX from 1987 to 2003 - I'd really like to see the reference for this change in quantity in writing otherwise I assume they had under estimated the quantity to reach the level hole in a clean rebuilt as opposed to drained (not stripped) box.... There was an analogous situation on my Ferrari 308 gearbox where a small quantity of oil was retained in a drained box and a dry box need more to reach the drain/level hole
1974 GS Birotor, 1972 GS 1220 FIA Gp 2, 1992 BX 16 TGS, 1951 Velo-Solex, 1953 NSU Max 250, 1972 Honda ST50, Daughter has 1990 BX14 TGE
Previously owned include 1983 BX14RE Leader, Porsche 924, 1972 Porsche 911T, 1973 Porsche Carrera RS 2.7 (FIA Group 4), 1974 Porsche Carrera RS 3.0 (FIA Group 4 ex Le Mans), 1969 911 T/R (FIA Group 3 ex Le Mans), 1981 Porsche Group B 3.3 litre World Endurance Championship, 1991 Footwork Arrows Porsche Formula 1 (ex Alboreto & Caffi),
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electrokid
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by electrokid »

maybe the diff is throwing its toys out of its pram,
I do hope not !

According to Andy the 2.5 litres was mentioned in a service bulletin. There may of course be a difference between clean fill and refill - I know on the Granada there's something around 2 litres retained mainly in the torque convertor - it's something like 9 litres for a dry fill and only 7 for a refill - and there must be a small amount retained in the B3 as the following indicates...

After my trip on Friday to collect the gearbox from Jay 3rd gear had once again become noisey. the next time I used the car was Saturday so before setting off I put an additional 200ml in because I figured that the oil level must have only just gone below the level needed to fully lubricate the GB.

3rd gear remained noisey for several miles before the additional oil got to the place it was needed but then it quietened down considerably. This morning I popped down to Andy to book it in and it was still nice and quiet - there was a slot this afternoon when we could have a preliminary look at it.

This afternoon I drove down to Andy's and the box was still nice and quiet and we put it up on the ramp to have a look - we had some guesses about how much would drain out (I wanted to see how much would drain because that would give me an idea of how fast it was leaking out - if we saw close to 2 litres then the GB would be knackered - if we saw much less then it was hopefully just lack of lubrication).

Since I had put in 800ml in the last week and a half, my guess was around 1 litre - it turned out to be considerably less - 65ml :lol: which is currently sitting in a flask with a magnet attached to the bottom so tomorrow when I pour it out I can see if there's any steel bits that shouldn't be there.

But... even with only 65ml drained out of the GB there was no whine in 3rd - so there must be a cavity which is difficult for the oil to get into (hence the delay in the whine ceasing after the extra oil put it) and slow to drain from which accounts for it remaining quiet with only 65ml of oil available to drain.

So it's booked in on Friday to have the drive shaft seals replaced.
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electrokid
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by electrokid »

It's a bit worse than we imagined :(

First noticed was a crack in the diff housing where the oil was leaking out, then when the GB was removed it was found that a tooth had fallen off one of the planet gears and jammed between the crown wheel and the housing which punched a hole in the housing between the GB and the clutch. This is something that Andy has seen before on 'high mileage' gearboxes. It's amazing that it was driveable :shock:

So various bits are currently being swapped from my GB to the one I bought from Jay and I found a Valeo clutch which should be with us Monday afternoon.

And I finally found where the leak is that's causing wet floors on the driver's side both front and rear - the welding I had done last year around the washer bottles was ok on the outside but not welded under the bottles themselves so any water trying to drain from that are went straight into the car - it was a bodge :( That are is now filled with silicone rubber to provide a definite fix even if it's temporary fix - but I think it should be welded properly eventually.

I've had the dehumidifier inside the car for 48 hours but because the carpet on the driver's side had a built-in piece of rubber under the pedals that's not going to dry out unless the seats are removed and the carpets taken up - at least I'll be able to see if any rust has started as a result of the wet floors.
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by citsncycles »

That all sounds depressingly familiar! On my 1st RD the crownwheel chewed its way out through the casing where your's had punched a hole - mine was a nice crescent shape. It wasn't what I'd call high mileage at 100k but I don't think it had been that well maintained before I bought it. As sod's law would have it, it started a catastrophic oil leak in Lincolnshire, but I managed to drive it back home with a caravan on the back on a bank holiday Monday. The Tuesday was rather frought as I was off to Belgium on the Wednesday so after Tony Weston stuck it on the ramp and found the issue a Geabox was bought from a local breakers for £50, and a friend of a friend who ran a clutch centre in Gloucester swapped the boxes for £100 cash and I was on my way by 4pm!

This is why I'm keeping a look out for a spare BE1 box for Timex, as the one fitted is worn and leaky.

As for your water leak, I suspect I missed a bit on the passenger side of Timex as I have water coming in somewhere round that area but have sealed up the repair.
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by mat_fenwick »

The sound insulation will also trap a LOT of water, so the sooner you can lift up the carpets the better. Unless it's wet under the seats you can leave them in place. It's a shame the job wasn't done properly :(
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by citronut »

i hadn't realised i must have crystal balls Brian, i could smell the gear oil from hear

hiope its all sorted once you get the clutch

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
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electrokid
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by electrokid »

i hadn't realised i must have crystal balls Brian,
You were spot on with your 'diff throwing it's toys out' prediction.
On my 1st RD the crownwheel chewed its way out through the casing where your's had punched a hole
You did very well to get that home and then fixed in double-quick time =D>
I suspect I missed a bit on the passenger side of Timex
The sound insulation will also trap a LOT of water, so the sooner you can lift up the carpets the better. Unless it's wet under the seats you can leave them in place. It's a shame the job wasn't done properly
I should have taken a photo of it - to post here and to whinge at the welders though I'm not sure what that would have achieved. As it was I was both pleased to have found the leak and livid with the welders that they should put the whole car at risk of rusting into oblivion in next to no time at all - but having found the leak my first reaction was to stop any more water getting in.

I think it's possibly easy to miss something in that area - where the bit under the washer bottle meets the firewall and possibly just below that joint on the firewall itself is probably difficult to see / get at.

Andy put forward the explanation that they may not have welded in that area because of the proximity of soundproofing but really that should have come out and the job done properly. The water is in the front OS and rear OS footwells - so seats and sound insulation will all have to come out - a lot of work and at the wrong time of year. I feel like getting an AA inspection then getting someone else to do the job and pass the bill on to the welders but how far that would get I really don't know. Perhaps someone who knows what they are doing with the BX like Chevronics.
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Re: Gearbox Oil Filler

Post by citronut »

a couple of months back i did some welding on an A reg MK1 the owner wont part with, even though the car is completely trashed inside and out,

one area of welding was at the top of the inner wing/wheel arch were it meets the bottom rear of the scuttle,

i had to drop the fuse box and pull all the sound proofing and carpet/underlay down to avoid setting the car on fire,

rusty holes in this area also can lead to water ingress to the fuse box,

regards malcolm
curent ride
K reg BX 17TD TZD est
also own
K reg D special

no longer have
H reg CX saffari 2.5 TRI (now gone to Malaysia)
R reg xantia 1.9TD est (gone to meet its maker)
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