Valeo "universal" ignition switch - wiring help

[garethj]

I've done a search but found nothing on this particular issue.

BX 1.7 turbo diesel, fitted a new Valeo ignition switch from GSF and all the ignition functions are the wrong way around now. Ignition lights don't come on until you hold it on the crank position, yet the starter motor spins on the first position.

There's no way the electric switch has been positioned wrong to the barrel, and it only fits one way. Can someone help with what wire connects to where on the 2 large connectors? It's only got 2 wires running to one connector, my old switch had 4 wires to each connector.

I had a brilliant idea of using the new barrel with the old electric switch but they can't be put together. Help...!

[Way2go]

If we think about this logically for a moment, should be:
Position 1 = Accessories on
Position 2 = Ignition on
Position 3 = Crank On & disable accessories.

You have:
Position 1 = Crank On
Position 2 = ?
Position 3 = Ignition on

So it would seem the wiring is not just back to front but almost certainly wrongly assigned.

What happens in Position 2? It would seem you need to reassign the wires as follows:

Position 1 = Reassign wire to your existing position 2 connection
Position 2 = Reassign wire to your existing position 3 connection
Position 3 = Reassign wire to your existing position 1 connection

If you are able to temporarily disconnect the connection to the starter solenoid, it will help you test & confirm that your re-connections are correct without noise and risk of overloading the switch contacts, ie:

Position 1 = Only accessories are on
Position 2 = Ignition lights are on
Position 3 = Ignition lights are on but accessories are disabled (car will crank when starter is connected)

Hope this helps.

[garethj]

Agree with all that, but I don't know what goes on inside the switch, nor why there are 4 wires at the switch but 6 at the connectors and 8 on the car's harness.

Is one of the wires 12V in, then the other 3 are accessories, ignition and starter motor? I can probably work that out with a multimeter and the switch, but where should they go on the car? Does anyone have a wiring diagram which shows where the 8 wires on tue car connect to? Unfortunately I only have the brown Haynes for petrol BX's.

[garethj]

The plot thickens...

On the old switch, I got busy with the multimeter and found this. Anyone make any sense of it?

Position off (as near as I can make out from the keyway on the barrel to the slot on the switch)
All open circuit. Nothing connects to anything.

Position 1 (Accessory)
#1 Brown connector shorts to #1 on white connector.
#2 Brown connector shorts to #2 on white connector.

Position 2 (Ignition on)
#3 Brown connector shorts to #3 on white connector.
#4 Brown connector shorts to #4 on white connector.

Position 3 (Starter motor)
All open circuit. Nothing connects to anything.

There's also a 4th position from the sprung detents inside the switch, but they're all open circuit as well.

I was confused before, now I'm bricking it....

[garethj]

If we think about this logically for a moment, should be:
Position 1 = Accessories on
Position 2 = Ignition on
Position 3 = Crank On & disable accessories.

You have:
Position 1 = Crank On
Position 2 = ?
Position 3 = Ignition on

I've just been out to check again, and with my new switch I have:
Position 1 = Crank On
Position 2 = Crank On
Position 3 = Ignition on

Does this throw any light on things? Because it doesn't for me.

Thanks for the help so far by the way!

[Way2go]

It confirms that you have the starter motor connected to the accessories position as in position 1 & 2 the accessories should be ON. When you go to position 3 the accessories are turned OFF for as long as you are in that temporary position. The circuits that should be connected to position 2 , you have connected to position 3 if the ignition lights and say windscreen wipers ONLY work in that position.

[garethj]

I agree. The bit of the puzzle I'm missing is that there are 4 wires at the new switch, 6 at the harness (because one wire splits into two for two of them) but I don't know how the 6 wires translate into the 3 positions of accessories, ignition and crank.

[Way2go]

Agree with all that, but I don't know what goes on inside the switch, nor why there are 4 wires at the switch but 6 at the connectors and 8 on the car's harness.

Is one of the wires 12V in, then the other 3 are accessories, ignition and starter motor? I can probably work that out with a multimeter and the switch, but where should they go on the car? Does anyone have a wiring diagram which shows where the 8 wires on tue car connect to? Unfortunately I only have the brown Haynes for petrol BX's.

You have the wiring diagram in your Brown Haynes page 416. This will be essentially the same for your diesel as glowplugs and stop solenoid will be fitted into the appropriate sub-system box.

There are 4 switches and the outputs are connected to the 4 wipers. Read the switch positions right to left as OFF, 1, 2, 3.
Three of the switches are internally connected where two are bridged 1-2 and one is bridged 2-3 on the inputs and the last is not bridged at all. It is this last switch wiper (on the left) that should go to the starter solenoid.
The next switch (2nd from left) provides power for the radiator fan
The next switch (3rd from left) powers the ignition guarded items.
The next switch (4th from left) powers the accessory position items (Not just accessories)

So, theoretically 8 wires are needed ignoring the internal connections (but if the internal connections are not incorporated then there would be 3 more wires which would need to be doubled to the appropriate points).

However 4 of the wires are inputs going to the +12v supply therefore it's possible that additional internal connections have been made to cut these down to 2, giving you 6 wires as two inputs going to the same point and 4 separate outputs.

Hope this reduces rather than increases confusion.

[Way2go]

I agree. The bit of the puzzle I'm missing is that there are 4 wires at the new switch, 6 at the harness (because one wire splits into two for two of them) but I don't know how the 6 wires translate into the 3 positions of accessories, ignition and crank.

OK, just seen this since you posted.

It sounds as if there is now one wafer less than shown. (the 2nd one connected 1-2 has been deleted and doubled to another perhaps?)

This gives you 3 outputs only and if all inputs are internally connected, you only have 1 input.

This makes it easier to make sense of it with your meter.....................

1) Find the input wire.

2) The switch wire that gives s/c output on position 3 is your cranking output

3) The switch wire that gives s/c output on position 3 AND 2 is your ign guarded output

4) The switch wire that gives s/c output on position 1 AND 2 is your accessory output

By the way, which wires are doubled ?

[docchevron]

It's only got 2 wires running to one connector, my old switch had 4 wires to each connector.

Quite normal, and shouldn't effect the use of the switch at all. Later units were rationalised. Both the Ign. switches on my cars are like this, and both previously had 4 and 4, but now have 4 and 2.

It sounds as if the connectors are in the wrong connectors in the loom.

[bx_pallas]

The original switch has a brown connector (4 red wires) whitch fits directly behind the connector with the two very thick black wires behind the relays, and a white connector (4 white wires) behind the brown one (and slightly left of it).

The 4 positions on the brown connector are all equally permanent +12V (switch input), the 4 positions on the white connector (behind the brown) are the switched outputs from the ign. switch to power the accessories, ignition, starter motor.

What the bx's junction box needs:
Looking at the white connector of the ign. switch (3rd row from the relays, 4th from right), pins numbered from #1 to#4 from right to left:
- Key position 1 (only accessories on, no engine): +12V only at #1 and #2
- Key position 2 (driving): +12V only at #1, #2 and #4
- Key position 3 (engine start): +12V only at #3 and #4
- Key position "off": no +12V anywhere


Pin #1 (the very right) goes to the accessories over Fuse F3,
#2 goes to the acessories over Fuse F2
#3 goes to the starter motor
#4 (the very left) goes to the fuel shutoff valve, preglow and Fuse F1 (rev. counter, etc.)

[garethj]

I think we're getting there - thank you!

Feed to the ignition switch is through the black connector (brown on the car harness). The car's harness has 4 wires going in but the new switch has 2 at the connector which go into 1 wire at the ignition barrel.

You're spot on for the outputs, so I've got:

Green wire - accessory position
Yellow wire - ignition position
Orange wire - crank position

The green wire is doubled up in the harness, and there's also a spur wire for the ABS from it.

Looking at the Haynes manual....

Connector position 1 goes to ABS, indicators, brake and reversing lights. Also electric windows, washers and cig lighter. Is that the accessories wire?

Connector position 2 goes to ABS, indicators, brake and reversing lights. Also warning lights, alternator or starter motor or radiator fan (would be handy to know which). Is that the ignition wire?

Connector position 3 goes only to alternator or starter or radiator fan, but I don't know which. I'll guess that's the crank wire?

Connector position 4 goes to ABS, indicators, brake and reversing lights. Also warning lights, alternator or starter motor or radiator fan (would be handy to know which) which is similar to Connector position 2. But it also goes to a huge bolt of lightning, a spark plug (maybe?) and a calculator.

Of those 4 above, do you think:
Connector position 4 is ignition?
Connector position 3 is crank?
The other two are doubled from the same wire, so they're interchangeable.

[garethj]

Pin #1 (the very right) goes to the accessories over Fuse F3,
#2 goes to the acessories over Fuse F2
#3 goes to the starter motor
#4 (the very left) goes to the fuel shutoff valve, preglow and Fuse F1 (rev. counter, etc.)

I think that makes sense too. With that in mind, and my confused findings above it looks like the wires were 180 degrees out in the connector plug.

I've swapped them over inside the plug but it's a bit dark to get out there now and go hunting for those connectors in the footwell, so I'll have a go tomorrow.

Thank you, everyone!

[bx_pallas]

Yep, pos. 1 and 2 is accessory (green), pos. 3 is crank (orange), and pos. 4 is ignition (yellow). Acessory (1+2) should be off while cranking.

Don't confuse yourself with the haynes manual, it doesnt have the wiring diagram of the distibution box!

When my ignition switch died a few years ago, I created a little replacement circuit with two simple rockers for switching accessories and ignition and a button for cranking. The 4 positions of the white connector are switched over 4 standard relays and a 5th relay opening the acessory circuit while cranking. Cranking is only possible when ignition is on, and ignition is only possible when acessory is also on, so the circuit behaves exactly like the orig. ignition switch...
(Of course I also removed the steering lock pin for safety reasons, because you can now drive with no key in the lock)

[garethj]

Thanks for everyone's help - I've just tried the new wiring configuration and it works. Now to put everything back together....