BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

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tranentbx
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BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by tranentbx »

Hi,

I've been running a totally fault free 14RE for the past two years until yesterday!

Here's the problem:

The old dear starts fine and drives as normal until it's warmed up and I start working the manual choke in. A soon as the choke is fully in, the motor struggles to get above idle revs and feels like it's starved of fuel and doesn't go anywhere fast. As soon as I pull the choke back out a bit, it drives and revs as normal.

Obviously, I don't want to drive with the choke out all the time so am wondering if anyone has any ideas what the problem could be?

The fuel line/filter looks clear etc. I've not had the carburettor off to check the float tank or the needle valve etc but I've got a feeling it'll be something in there that needs sorted....

Just wondered if anyone had any similar problems? Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Tinkley »

Which engine 14RE is it?. My old 14RE was a 150C engine and it had a few problems after high mileage.
The comments below refer to that engine but may be pertinent to the later TU type engine.

1. Check the fuel filter which should be transparent is 80%+ full, if not suspect the fuel pump.

2. If you have changed plugs recently, change the HT leads - the 150C engine eats them for breakfast. Usually a definite misfire if it is the leads, check the ends but they can be fine and still shot. On this engine 150c I recommend the old copper core leads for long life.

3. Check distributor cap and rotor arm, they normally do around 30-35k OK but show signs of wear/pitting. Try the cap for sparking in the dark if you can watch and someone turns it over.

4. Change the plugs if not done within 12k.

5. Coil part failure. Nice one this and can be subtle. Car starts and seems to run OKish. Fuel consumption a bit high and reluctant to idle or pull away. Eventually it will totally fail usually on
pulling away. On my 150 it failed twice. First time outright, second time I caught it. the clue is less than good fuel consumption and subtle power loss not quite outright misfiring.

6. Carburettor is getting oil/mayonnaise in it, thrown in by crankcase breather. This is a good one as it can stop you at 70mph in the outside lane!. Also difficulty idling and intermittent throttle response. Cure on 150 is reroute crankcase breather to atmosphere. Strip the carb anyway and blow it out with Carb cleaner, make sure there is no sediment in the float bowl. The manual choke Solex on the 150 is doddle to clean, don't use compressed air at least not high pressure stuff. Normal Carb cleaner is good, remove atomisers (one at a time) and jets and blow though as well as choke and idle orifices. Make sure you keep the carb gasket intact, the one between top and bottom halves, so gently if you do not dismantle regularly.

Hard to tell you exactly which one but my guess at a distance and not being able to be in the car and 'feel' the problem is the coil, if it is the round cylinder type (150 engine) on the bulkhead. Also double check the earth of the coil which if I remember right is to the main engine/battery earth point. Cleaning this up and abrading the aluminium if oxidised does no harm. If it is a TU engine someone else might have 150k+ experience of running one and its niggles, although quite a few of htese checks would still be valid.
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by tranentbx »

Wow, thanks! Lots to chew on there so will get back to you. In short though it is the 150c engine. I've had the distributer apart and cleaned. It's spotless so might discount that for now. Spark plugs are new so also going to assume they're OK. Only 63,000 miles on the clock so won't call it high miler yet! Also fuel pump shoots petrol out halfway across my garden so unless its sticking intermittently, it's good!

Thanks again for the advice,

Cheers
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Tinkley »

Thanks for the update. Your updated information would lead me towards the HT Leads. I used to change them every time I changed the plugs, because if I did not they would start failing shortly after.

I'm not sure why it was so sensitive, but it seemed that the vibration and then disturbance of the leads whilst renewing plugs or DIZZY cap seemed to lead to an internal breakdown. It is the same set of leads as one of the Pug 309s if you are trying to get a set. Do all 5 anyway, if the poor running continues do the coil after cleaning the carb, but I think you will find the problem cured. Check the lead ends as you remove them but I found it hard to isolate the exact one that had failed and certainly a couple of times at least 2 of the 5 were intermittent. You might be lucky and find it is the coil end as it sits vertically and water can sometimes get in there.

BTW my old 14 did 175k and I drove all but 12k in her so have a reasonable ammount of mileage with that engine. Also are you using LRP as that is a leaded engine only? or what additive are you using?. Only reason I did not save my old 14 was the so called end of LRP in 04. The 150 does run better on leaded petrol 4* if you can find it!.

I still have brand new set of NGK plugs for this engine. Free, so if you are ever near Guildford or Farnham let us know and you can have them.
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by KevR »

Sounds like classic symptoms of a blocked idle jet to me....
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Tinkley »

What idle jet! :lol: No but when I bought my 14 it had NO idle jet in the carb, still idled though without any choke. It was the 22 mpg that was the give away, now on an 11 month old car with 12k and one owner (Budget haha) it really should have done better. Citroen quality PDI..... :lol: Bit like the ZX I saw with 3 wheels one diameter the fourth a different one... at Broads of Chalfont.

For all that, I still reckon on the leads, those 150s eat them like no other car or engine I have ever known. New, you can get away with moving them and changing plugs but maybe it is the heat cycling and that laid back angle, but once they have done over 10k most likely you break something in the lead even handling with great care. Hence my recommending 'old fashioned' copper core leads which last much longer than the carbon/silicone ones.

Note it is not just the idle, but when you put your foot down and it should be out of the transition idle to main jet phase, it is still giving a 'starved of fuel' feel. IMHO this is what I used to get with a faulty lead(s) and changing them transforms the car. Of course with the cold weather you can get a blocked jet but I tended to find it was the main atomiser covered in mayonnaise, but this engine is a young 65k miler not more than double that with a bit more crankcase breathing!.
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by KevR »

Tinkley wrote:What idle jet! :lol: No but when I bought my 14 it had NO idle jet in the carb,
:D
Tinkley wrote:For all that, I still reckon on the leads, those 150s eat them like no other car or engine I have ever known.
You're probably right - no substitute for years of experience with one type of engine.

Tinkley wrote:Note it is not just the idle, but when you put your foot down and it should be out of the transition idle to main jet phase, it is still giving a 'starved of fuel' feel. IMHO this is what I used to get with a faulty lead(s) and changing them transforms the car. Of course with the cold weather you can get a blocked jet.
That was my other thought - carb icing due to recent wet and cold weather. Used to have a Renault Trafic which was an absolute bugger for that even in summer until I replumbed the air intake to take air from near the exhaust manifold. Would idle but absolutely would not run under load.
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Tinkley »

The 150 has it's air intake very low down on the n/s and there are 3 settings. I almost always used the summer (ete) one but in very cold weather changed to the intermediate setting. It is a manual adjustment on the intake itself.

KevR you are right, carb icing does happen on these 150s but it is not too bad. Usually only in the first 3 to 5 miles. As the engine heats up the intake manifold/carb area seems to go through a transition phase temperature wise and you get the odd cut out, even with a little choke. The 1.6 is similar but slightly less of a problem. When the engine is warmer it is fine, both 14 and 16. Both are pretty lean burn and I do know some swear by increasing the thickness of the rubber gasket on the manifold to the carb a little to help alleviate some of this.

It sounds like Renault did not get their airflow temperature right at all. Even my old Chrysler Sunbeam had an auto switch allowing heated (exhaust) manifold air in until warm then shutting off.

Worst was the Gilera NordWest which would ice in 30° C ambient (that is a plus temperature not a minus!) and jam at full throttle :lol: til it hit the limiter at 8k... Fortunately there was a return throttle cable which you could shut the throttle with [-o< . Honda put a pre warmer on the carbs of their big singles because of this. I got bit fed up with it so stripped the carb (Teikei) and it never happened again, no idea why, never found anything obvious.
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Defender110 »

Not too sure how it could be the HT leads if it starts ok and runs ok with a little choke on? Not electrical or fuel starvation to the carb if it gets enough fuel for choke. Simple bit of carb adjustment or similar if you ask me
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Tim Leech »

I am inclined to agree with Kev, if it was misfiring would it not do it all the time?

is it worth adjusting the mixture a wee bit and see if that helps, do you have access to a gas tester? to see if its just a case of running too lean. These engines were designed to run on 4 star I expect.
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Tinkley »

With the greatest of respect to Tim and Defender...

Thats the joy of the 150 engine, you think it is just a carb adjustment, believe me after a dozen sets of HT leads it is (most likely) not. Nice and easy normal screws on this Solex too, not Torx. If the 'fault' has happened within 0-500 miles of changing the plugs and checking the DIZZY cap and arm it will 95% of the time be the leads. When I first got this fault it foxed me for a while. After the second time I usually carried a spare set of leads in the car. If the fuel consumption dropped - I changed the leads, problem sorted. It was the only real weakness of that engine that I found. Most embarrassing was going to a friends wedding in Falmouth and the sod started playing up on the A 303 and I didn't have a full set of leads spare in the back. Fortunately a Pug dealer in Exeter had a set and it was faultless after the change. I had thoroughly serviced the car prior to going down there, oil, carb strip/clean, plugs, cap arm etc etc but not leads.

The 'misfire' is very subtle and feels like fuel starvation not bang, spit, bang just no even power coming in, just a slightly heavy foot overcomes it. Just enough to run OK with a slightly high idle (small ammount of choke) as described. If you can get it up to 70+mph and put your foot down hard you may well witness lots of unburnt fuel ie smoke exiting the exhaust and then you may well actually detect a real popping misfire. Full on with the 2nd choke open.

I don't know why it is so prone to shaking the leads apart internally, but it does. I can only surmise that the heat and vibration from its laid back mount make it a lot worse than the later TU type. It only does in the standard carbon/silicone leads which you can buy widely not the copper ones. Unfortunately someone actually stole some of the copper ones off the car once and I had to revert.

The coil failure is also similar but tends to be in high load ie pulling away situations, that is before it totally goes. The odd stall pulling away when everything is warm would be more likely to be the coil.
Of course the expert RAC man told me it was definitely the distributor... :lol: (first time I had a coil go) after he took it home from Old Street roundabout London. Rule No 1 start with the cheapest most basic component...and trust your instinct if you know the car.

Had a similar 'fuel starvation' feel on the 1.6 last week - it was a plug!. But I got to know that 150C pretty well over 15 years.
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Tim Leech »

I dont get why its ok when you pull the choke out then?
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Tinkley »

Because it raises the idle speed slightly which keeps it ticking over relatively smoothly.

Similar to my 1.6 when the plug went but with the autochoke which had shut off, result no idle, total cut out when changing gear with foot off throttle for fun. In fact nearly no re start either. Still the plugs had been in there 5 years at least... :lol: Still getting used to the B2C only 100k + on them so far... :D

But the 150 with a manual choke allows you to keep that trace of extra fuel and a fractionally higher idle masking the problem. 100 -150 rpm higher will keep it running OK, no rev counter on those REs' though but you can hear the tone/revs OK, and it does not sound massively too fast.
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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by tranentbx »

Tinkley

thank you for all that info, I think you could be a bit of a goldmine for info!

thanks also to everyone elses input :-)

I am going to order a new set of HT leads asap (copper core if I can)

unfortunately, I'm up near Edinburgh otherwise would have taken up your generous offer!
any tips about the best brand? Am guessing I will have to use eBay :-(. Will give local guy a chance first though.

thanks again and will keep you updated updated.

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Re: BX 14RE - starved of fuel?

Post by Defender110 »

Tinkley wrote:With the greatest of respect to Tim and Defender...

Thats the joy of the 150 engine, you think it is just a carb adjustment, believe me after a dozen sets of HT leads it is (most likely) not.
I got to know that 150C pretty well over 15 years.
Tinkley; I obviously bow to your much greater knowledge on this engine (not hard as I have none :roll: ) it just appears illogical on my limited old (1970's cars) knowledge of temperamental petrol engines.
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