Alternative Fuels (split thread)

[Tinkley]

I've driven LPG powered fork lifts (5 Ton lift ones) basiclly they were Ford engines converted to take LPG injected into the manifold. Ran very very clean especially indoors.... we were using it to move generators onto packing crates/into test areas. No problem with them, renew the propane when it died

My Dad ran LPG Bristol's (603 and 411) for many years and they were fine. Still pretty quick..... 70 felt like 45....

[KevR]

Yes, LPG's well-proven in normal engines. Natural Gas (ie the stuff that comes down the mains to fire up your boiler) is a bit diffferent in terms of storage and tank filling.

[mat_fenwick]

Natural Gas is a bit diffferent in terms of storage and tank filling.

Yeah...a few more precautions in the way of pressures!

As an aside on LPG (which I am a fan of if you hadn't guessed), this is the inside of a Rover V8 engine after 142k miles (the last 130k on LPG):



Compare that with a picture I found which is similar to how another of my engines looked inside after 136k miles:



Obviously, cleanliness is only part of the picture and oil will still suffer from thermal breakdown at the same sort of rate, so I wouldn't advise extending oil change intervals when running on gas as some people do. But I do wonder why more effort isn't put into LPG vehicles supplied from the manufacturer in this country. Italy especially seems to be way ahead of us in this respect. If you look at the differece in emissions (the ability to pass a catalytic converter emissions test on gas without one fitted for example) it seems like a no-brainer.

[Way2go]

Natural Gas is a bit diffferent in terms of storage and tank filling.

Yeah...a few more precautions in the way of pressures!

Reading Buses have bought a new fleet of Compressed Natural Gas Buses for their No 9 Route. The gas cylinders are installed on the roof hidden behind fairings.

[mds141]

Stobarts and most of the supermarket chains have equipped their trucks to run on CNG. They usually have an extra tank fitted next to the ad blue tank.

[KevR]

Perkins were working on carbon fibre tanks rather than steel - not sure if that came to anything?

[mat_fenwick]

Stobarts and most of the supermarket chains have equipped their trucks to run on CNG. They usually have an extra tank fitted next to the ad blue tank.

That is interesting. I know that gas with a diesel increases the efficiency, which can either be used for extra performance, economy or a bit of both. The diesel igniting under compression is used to ignite the gas, giving a more complete burn. But the payback times if used for economy are huge (think in the region of 100k miles) compared with converting a petrol car. Obviously trucks will do that mileage much more quickly - in a year maybe?

[Thread Bear]

Home CNG is a dream. LPG is easier and I have a kit that was for a Lada Niva sitting idle. Once I have settled on vehicles a bit more that might find its way into something that is being used as a daily. I have threatened the Wolesely 4/44 with a V8 lump plus the LPG just because. Does not really make sense though. I nearly put it on my last Tatra 603. No real answer to that LPG thing yet and Lada Nivas are extinct.

[Defender110]

As Mat knows I do like the idea of a V8 LPG and very nearly bought a Land Rover 110 V8 LPG last year, the main off-putting for me was the size of the gas tank in the bag which took up considerable room, I plummeted for a TD5 Diesel again in the end. I wasn't aware you could use LPG in diesel engines too assuming they needed the spark ignition?

[mat_fenwick]

This is one of the more advanced systems out there, but for an XUD you could get away with a much simpler manual system.

[mark239]

False economy with all the extra fuel filter changes, the sourcing of the fuel and the internet is littered with cry's for help from users who have knackered up their fuel injection systems up and cars refusing to start in the cold. Run the correct fuel and have a trouble free motoring life

Friend of mine has run a Mercedes 190d on straight waste veg oil for over 300,000 miles over 18 years. The negligible cost of fuel filters is massively negated by the cost of the raw fuel (zero)

And he only filters it through fine muslin!

In winter,a dash of unleaded makes it easier to start however he does use a fuel preheater now.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4

[mds141]

Stobarts and most of the supermarket chains have equipped their trucks to run on CNG. They usually have an extra tank fitted next to the ad blue tank.

That is interesting. I know that gas with a diesel increases the efficiency, which can either be used for extra performance, economy or a bit of both. The diesel igniting under compression is used to ignite the gas, giving a more complete burn. But the payback times if used for economy are huge (think in the region of 100k miles) compared with converting a petrol car. Obviously trucks will do that mileage much more quickly - in a year maybe?

When I was working on refrigerated deliveries, the Scania R500 V8 we had was double shifted, so was averaging 1,400 kms a day. Average fuel consumption was around 9 mpg pulling a 24 tonne load.

[Thread Bear]

False economy with all the extra fuel filter changes, the sourcing of the fuel and the internet is littered with cry's for help from users who have knackered up their fuel injection systems up and cars refusing to start in the cold. Run the correct fuel and have a trouble free motoring life

Friend of mine has run a Mercedes 190d on straight waste veg oil for over 300,000 miles over 18 years. The negligible cost of fuel filters is massively negated by the cost of the raw fuel (zero)

And he only filters it through fine muslin!

In winter,a dash of unleaded makes it easier to start however he does use a fuel preheater now.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4

Sounds very lucky, but it depends what the oil was used for before donation. Get a lot of nasty chemicals in well used frying oil. Normality is that only filtered used frying oil will take out the pump and attack other components. Of course if the oil has been used for a less stressful purpose, it will be less harmful. As the original link showed treating with Methanol and Sodium or Potassium knocks out much of the problem, drying the oil is a good idea. Those processes do not have to be expensive but it requires known level of oil, space and time and home made kit. The end result is not yet Biodiesel but would run OK. All the people I know who have tried to shortcut using untreated oil have not made money, if they are honest about it. Duffed engines, breakdowns, poor performance and costs like 'being late for work' and pissing the wife off - meal/flowers/chocs fine to pay, or worse. (Ex bizz so I always put a cost to an overhead. I know what each project cost. Bit anal but old habits die hard and this was one reason I was more successful that other folks I competed with. Its easy to make an artificial profit, ignoring storage, transport, the bust wheel from that trip, and so on).
My bud, Mike, does save money but buys in bulk from a cash and carry and pours veggie unmodified through a succession of old cars he runs for a fixed period before changing cars. That is the way to do it, but it does not work if you want to keep a specific car.

Range Rovers. Is it me or are there no good cheaper ones about? I fancied one but all I have looked at is ill modified or maintained junk. To be honest they stopped making proper RR ages ago, before the P38 - ominously named after a brand of filler there, coming in. I want one for the country so all the extras are not wanted and neither the oversized engine option. Get into older RR and its a dream world. Good early RR are getting expensive. I think the only way I can get what I want is to find a donor ID, a suitable body and build one properly! I see why these horrible double cab pick ups have taken over. It comes to something when a full pick up is seen as an expensive option of a car! ASa means to an ends I looked at them. Tax advantage, mostly better build quality and if you pick the right one they are better in the poo because most RR have pathetic suspension on them, as they were to tight to treat with Citroen. So no adjustable suspension to go with the power locks etc etc. Anyway after looking at much rubbish and stolen, miss advertised and fraudulently offered cars on eBay I thin its simpler not to have one!

Fraudulent? Indeed. One ad I followed up insisted you must 'phone to view. So I did not but did a drive-by to check out this 'business'. Looked good, dirty great forecourt, loads of stock. So I trotted in and asked about the pickup. They had never heard of it. So we checked details, checked eBay on the computer. Boss left me with underling to see 'if I was interested in anything else on the forecourt'. Nope, I hung around as I wanted to find out what was going on. Boss returned and said he now understood what was going on. THey had had several vehicles 'returned' to the dealership that they had not sold. So this seller was using the end of a bona_fide business forecourt to pass of his dodgy deals as if backed by that company. I left him calling the police. Be careful buying out there guys, its getting nasty.

[mat_fenwick]

With the Merc 190, is the pump lubricated by engine oil rather than the fuel it's running on? I know that older Merc diesels did, which means the lubricative properties of the fuel are less important.

[MULLEY]

The older Merc diesels are legendery for being able to be run on pretty much anything, so i'm not surprised about doing 300k using vegie.

I've only every used brand new veggie oil, so i don't have to do frequent filter changes, i do check it more often though than if i was just using diesel, not found any adverse problems so far, but i only use it in the summer & probably not much more than 30%, plus i like the smell