TZD turbo and boost valve questions

BX Tech talk
Post Reply
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

The grey one's never been particularly quick, but it's been getting gradually slower over the past few months. I'd assumed it was a problem with the Boost Valve (Lucas pump) as otherwise there are no other adverse symptoms (no smoke, no turbo noise etc). I needed to change the radiator before going to UK just before xmas, so took the opportunity to remove the valve, which turned out to be completely full of black, gungy engine oil, presumably having dripped down from the intercooler.
Cleaned the pipes out, fitted valve from a known good pump (checked the diaphragms were ok), and headed for UK. Terrible - if anything even worse than before. No noticeable boost at all, struggles to top 75mph on the flat, won't rev (can't say how far it revs to as rev counter has never worked!), needs constant gearchanging to keep any kind of speed going, takes an age to accelerate away from junctions. Still virtually no exhaust smoke, even on full throttle/load.

I'm wondering if adjusting the 'new' valve will help - am I right in assuming it's a case of anti-colockwise for more fuel?

If that's not the problem, is it possible the turbo's gone south? I would have thought that would be accompanied by noise/smoke etc.
The only other thing I can think of is the wastegate is stuck open. Does that sound possible?

All ideas gratefully received.
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
User avatar
Jaba
1K Away
Posts: 1893
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:54 am
Location: Usually in the garage
My Cars: BX GTi, C3 Auto
x 80

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by Jaba »

The pipe and valve are always full of oil and still work normally.
It does sound like the turbo fuel boost has failed. Try removing the hose from the intercooler and seeing if this worsens the performance. If not then you need to get a new diaphragm kit.
This diagnosis of course presumes that the turbo is spinning and blowing air into the intercooler.
The Joy of BX with just one Citroën BX to my name now. Will I sing Bye Bye to my GTI or will it be Till death us do part.
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

Turbo is definitely blowing strongly - took the feed pipe to the intercooler off again today just to make sure. I've got a diaphragm kit so if adjusting the 'new' BCV doesn't help I'll rebuild the old one and change it over at some point. If only it wasn't such an utter bastard to get at....
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
User avatar
themildbunch
BXpert
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:38 pm
Location: Stroud, UK
x 5
Contact:

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by themildbunch »

could well be the boost control unit needs adjusting... when i replaced the whole unit for a new one i had to play with the settings a little - too screwed in and it will feel slow with little extra fuel injected on boost... - there's a fiddly plastic anti-tamper top to the screw... IIRC there's a 12 or 13mm lock nut and the adjusting screw needs a 4 or 6mm hex....
1988 BX 19 Gti 16v
1991 BX 17 TZD Estate
1991 BX 17 TZD Estate
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

14mm locknut! Adjuster nut is 4mm I think, might be 5mm, sure it's not 6mm. The trouble is getting at the bastard thing with all the hoses in the way. Anti-tamper cap is already removed as I stripped the valve and cleaned it out and checked the diaphragms before fitting. The only slight concern I have is I might have put the little steel plunger (the bit that fell out when you did yours, I seem to remember?) in the wrong way round - it looked like it should go in with the rounded end at the pump end and the stepped end at the valve end, if that makes sense.
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

Update: tried screwing the valve out two full turns. Possibly very slightly better but nothing major.
I will rebuild the old BCV and fit that, but before I do, can anyone confirm which way round that small metal piece/plunger (as above) goes....?
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

Update again!
Really, really need an answer as to which way round the little stepped bit of metal fits in the body of the valve, if anyone can help.... Rebuilt a spare BCV with new diaphragms, but decided to check orientation of that piece by removing the BCV from the white one, which is up on the ramp anyway. Stripped it and.... it's missing altogether, which may be why that one has always smoked like a chimney since I've had it.... The pipe that goes to the return pipe on the top of the pump is also missing the plastic jet which the other one has. Clearly it's been buggered about with....
Will fit the rebuilt one tomorrow in any case - if no one's come up with an answer by then, I'll just fit the stepped bit the opposite way round to the one that's on the car! But it would be good to know for sure which way it's supposed to go...
Getting really bored with this problem now.... :evil:
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

Success! And about bloody time too...
Fitted rebuilt BCV with steel bit the right way round (stepped end towards the pump, round end towards the diaphragm), off down the lane, floored it, big cloud of black smoke and away we go!
Drove around a bit adjusting the valve and now got minimal smoke and proper acceleration again.
Can't believe how long it's taken me to sort this.

I can recommend anyone planning on rebuilding the valve to take the whole thing off rather than mucking about trying to do it in situ - it'll need a thorough clean out anyway, the kit comes with new O-rings which you can't change without removing the whole thing, and you're far less likely to drop fiddly bits down behind the alternator bracket....
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
Defender110
Over 2k
Posts: 5917
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:02 pm
Location: Harwood, Bolton
My Cars: Land Rover Discovery Series 1 200tdi 3 door
Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5
2020 Fiat Panda cross 4x4 twin air.
x 27

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by Defender110 »

Joy =D> =D> Have you got the kit part no?
Kevan
1997 Mercedes C230 W202
2003 Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5 - Daily driver / hobby days and camping.
1993 Land Rover Discovery 200tdi Series 1 3 door - in need of TLC
2020 Fiat Panda 4x4 Cross Twin Air.
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

Not in front of me, but can dig it out later and provide a link to the ebay seller.
Good thing is the kit came with two sets of diaphragms - one for the early type setup, and one for the later type (both types look the same from the outside, just the diaphragms and holder that are different). Happily I have one of each type so could rebuild both for the price of one! (although obviously only one set of spare O-rings, but since neither of the valves leaked previously, that's fine).
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

OK, the main kit is listed as made by DDL, part no 13D35 - that's the diaphragms for the later boost valve for DPC pumps, plus all the O rings. The supplementary kit for earlier types (diaphragms only) is DDL 9100561A.
Beware that when I googled the second number it came up with a whole load of results, non of which were remotely safe for work.... :shock:

Googling the first one didn't come up with anything useful either, but nothing quite so eye-watering....

I bought mine from a very helpful chap called John Allet, who trades on Ebay as allmakes-diesel-specialist and has a very good website with loads of good info at http://www.diydieselshop.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've also bought pump overhaul kits from him for other pumps - he's always been prepared to answer as many stupid questions as I've been prepared to ask!
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

KevR wrote:although obviously only one set of spare O-rings, but since neither of the valves leaked previously, that's fine).
Spoke too soon on that.... Went to town today and came back to find a small puddle of diesel underneath.... :evil: Naturally the valve I'd fitted was the one I hadn't renewed the O-rings on....

On the plus side, I'm getting good at this now - put the clock on myself and from engine off to engine restart and test drive was a shade over 12 minutes! :D

No apparent leaks now, so hopefully all's well. Hopefully, because I've got at least a thousand mile round trip coming up this weekend, starting tonight.
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
Defender110
Over 2k
Posts: 5917
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:02 pm
Location: Harwood, Bolton
My Cars: Land Rover Discovery Series 1 200tdi 3 door
Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5
2020 Fiat Panda cross 4x4 twin air.
x 27

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by Defender110 »

Good luck on the trip, Enjoy!
Kevan
1997 Mercedes C230 W202
2003 Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5 - Daily driver / hobby days and camping.
1993 Land Rover Discovery 200tdi Series 1 3 door - in need of TLC
2020 Fiat Panda 4x4 Cross Twin Air.
KevR
1K Away
Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Normandy
My Cars: It's all in my signature
x 4

Re: TZD turbo and boost valve questions

Post by KevR »

Defender110 wrote:Good luck on the trip, Enjoy!
Well, not sure about enjoying (pissed down all the way there and back) but did well over 1000 miles (over 600 of those on friday, most of the rest yesterday) no problems at all. Finally feels like it's actually got a turbo! Although of course I'm now reminded that the clutch is past its best and inclined to slip a little when pushed... Oh well, I'll change that at 20,000 miles (in 4k time) along with belts, valve clearances etc.
1990 BX TZD Estate ('the grey one', 1991 BX TZD Estate ('the white one'), 1982 2CV6 Charleston (in bits), 1972 AZU Serie B (2CV van), 1974 HY72 Camper, 1990 Land Rover 110 diesel LWB, 1957 Mobylette AV76, 1992 Ducati 400SS, 1966 VW Beetle, 1990 Mazda MX-5, 1996 Peugeot 106D, 1974 JCB 2D MkII, 1997 BMW R1100RS, 1987 Suzuki GSX-R1100, 1978 Honda CX500A, 1965 Motobecane Cady, 1988 Honda Bros/Africa Twin, 1963 Massey Ferguson 825, and a lot of bicycles!
Post Reply