Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

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David
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Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:16 pm

Hi all,

I have got myself a gearbox, diff & transfer box out of a Peugeot 405 MI16 & have a few questions before I try putting them on my BX.

Firstly is the gearing in the 405 diff/ transfer box the same as a BX GTi or does it have a higher or lower ratio? (could I use the bx diff & Peugeot transfer box together for instance).

Will the internal gearing inside the 405 gearbox be the same as a BX GTi 8V or will it be higher for the 16V engine? (if so I might steal the 5th). I'm intending on using my gearbox as it was rebuilt, but I know I will have to swap the transfer box drive splines over.

Also the Peugeot transfer box doesn't have a diff lock attachment, does it just use limited slip diffs? & will the rear diff be limited slip as well? (the guy I got them off says so, But I'm making sure).

Also looking at the splines they don't look that much bigger than the BX ones (but until I pull my car apart again I have nothing to compare against), Is the size difference in them only marginal?
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by JayW » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:20 pm

Can't help with much of that i'm afraid. But, i do know that the early 405's had a cable operated difflock and the laters were torsen, like the BX. NONE of them have LSD's in the typical sense.
Last edited by JayW on Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:41 pm

Thanks for the reply,

It was my understanding that torsen & LSD's were really the same thing. Is that not so?
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by Way2go » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:04 am

AFAIK the transfer box (centre differential) on both the BX and the 405 is not Torsen but the rear differential is. The name Torsen is a contraction of 'torque sensing' and therefore is a type of LSD.
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by JayW » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:27 am

Aaaah, i was under the impression that it was the centre diff that was torsen, not the rear.

I'm sure someone will be along soon with an epic write up to clear it upfor you!
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by citsncycles » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:17 pm

Not sure about the Peugeot, but as mentioned the BX centre diff is a conventional one with lock. The rear diff can be LSD or Torsen depending on whether the vehicle has ABS fitted. From what I can remember from reading the technical bulletins, the LSD uses friction plates to limit the amount of slippage on the wheel with less traction, and something in the way it works can interfere with the ABS system. The Torsen system uses some sort of additional gearing system in the diff which gets around the ABS issue. I imagine the Torsen diff will fit on any 4x4, but wasn't originally due to cost.
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:08 am

Thanks for the replies.

I have got the diff off my car, I'll have to check if the gearing is the same in both. Externally they both look identical, & looking through the drive shaft holes they look the same, Will the Peugeot one be Torsen & mine be a open diff? (I know mine doesn't drive on both wheels; if one comes off the ground for instance, it just spins that one).

Also just to mention the original BX GTi 4x4 I got my parts off had ABS, & it looks like the Peugeot these parts came off did as well (looking at the drive shafts).

Does anyone know anything in regards to my other queries above?
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by mat_fenwick » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:27 am

citsncycles wrote:Not sure about the Peugeot, but as mentioned the BX centre diff is a conventional one with lock. The rear diff can be LSD or Torsen depending on whether the vehicle has ABS fitted. From what I can remember from reading the technical bulletins, the LSD uses friction plates to limit the amount of slippage on the wheel with less traction, and something in the way it works can interfere with the ABS system. The Torsen system uses some sort of additional gearing system in the diff which gets around the ABS issue. I imagine the Torsen diff will fit on any 4x4, but wasn't originally due to cost.
This is correct, and was actually an option on the 4x4 estate. Why David's rear diff appears to be open is a mystery, but I know that friction type LSDs can be sensitive to the oil used, so wonder if there is a problem internally due to oil used in the past. I can't see how a Torsen type would ail without audible symptoms!

The centre diff used on the Mi16x4 is a viscous coupling rather than a manually lockable type, which is another type of limited slip differential! I did look into all this in quite a bit of detail around 10 years ago when I actually had the 405 transmission and was considering putting it in my BX (an impending house move put paid to that) but I can't remember much more. I *think* the rear diff was stolen from the 505, but I can't be sure. That may give more options when searching, but ratios are obviously important...
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:49 pm

After having a mess around with the parts I can answer some of my questions, but some still remain.

The gearing in the diff is the same; so I assume the gearing in the transfer box should also be the same.

The gears in the 16V gearbox are exactly the same as the 8v gearbox (5th is anyway, I didn't pull any more apart).

I haven't pulled my transfer box out yet so I don't know how much bigger the splines are in comparison.

Just to mention on what Matt said; the diff off my car was quiet when it drove, But it has a plate saying "torsen" on the back, yet it drove like a open diff, So what would be going on here?

Also I have been looking through a Peugeot 4x4 manual & it says that some 405's had diff locks on the rear axle. Were any BX's made with diff locks on the rear axle or is this something else Peugeot kept to themselves?

Also Which type of transfer box would be best (disregarding the crap splines in the Citroen one), in regards to getting the car out of a bog for instance?
The Peugeot one with a viscous coupling?, or the Citroen one with the center diff lock? (if anyone has any idea that is).
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David » Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:30 pm

I have pulled the gearbox out of my BX & I can now say the drive splines are exactly the same! The splines out of the Peugeot gearbox slot perfectly in to my transfer box.

So, now I don't know whether to put the Peugeot transfer box in or keep mine after attempting to fix the oil leak again.

I'm sure the Peugeot 405 MI16 ones are supposed to be stronger. Or so I have read...
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by citsncycles » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:33 pm

As far as I know, the BX never got a locking rear diff, just the centre one.

I wonder if the viscous coupling could be what makes the Peugeot system stronger, as it may help absorb driveline shocks a bit.

On of the theories about why the splines fail is that it's due to wear in a bearing allowing one of the shafts to move (I forget which at the moment). It could be that the Peugeot system has a better bearing set up.
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm

Just a update on this thread.

I have a theory on why the Peugeot transfer boxes have "stronger" splines. It appears that the splines are the same as the Citroen ones, However, There is a ring inside the Peugeot transfer box that squeezes tightly on the end of the splines thus making it harder to jump & chew them up. In practice I don't know if it actually helps or not. But it does make the gearbox harder to get on & off!

Also while I have been swapping the box over I have found some other little potential problems that should be noted;

- The inner halfs of the drive shafts are different! The left one is longer for the Peugeot transfer box & the right one appears to have a different shaped end on it, Although I still need to look in to this further. Also the 405 seems to have a wider wheelbase than the BX, as the complete shafts seem to be longer, So I can't just use the complete Peugeot shafts. I was under the impression they were both the same.

- The speedo cable drive rod & cog are different; The Peugeot one has 13 teeth on the cog, where the Citroen one has 15. I don't know if it affects the speedo readings yet with it having different cogs, But I will report back with my findings. (unless someone already knows).
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by barry badger » Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:06 pm

I have said this before. I think the splines are perfectly strong enough, i'm sure the problem is the grease drying out. You see exacly the same problem on volkswagen t5s, renault scenics , citroen synergy autos and i'm sure others that i haven't come across. All these have the same problem of factory lube drying out and rapid destruction of the splines. If a system could be devised to lubricate the splines ( as has been done by some with the rear arm bearings ) i'm sure they would have a good long trouble free life.
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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by Izaak » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:07 am

All fascinating reading. Thanks for supplying and keep it up! 😀. Any idea about where to get a prop shaft, rear drive shafts and hubs ? Are the rear driveshafts the same as the front ?
The 405R4 locks the diff by pressing a button . I’m guessing it’s the rear diff that it locks from reading here ? But there is an electrical input into the 405 Transfer Box. So I’m not sure ?
You say the Diff fitted to the BX is the same dimensions as the 405 Transfer Box. I’m thinking about fitting it to a Turbo Diesel and worry the Transfer Box won’t fit.. but if it’s the same size as the Diff which it replaces thennit sounds like there won’t be a problem .... what do you think ?

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Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by Defender110 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:34 am

Izaak, this is a five year old post you are replying to?
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