replacement engine block

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Trafikontrol
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replacement engine block

Post by Trafikontrol » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:58 pm

Hey I bought a bx a few months ago and immediately fell in love with it, being completely new to cars I didnt change the cambelt, and 3000 miles after buying it the cambelt snapped.
After spending quite a lot of money getting the cylinder head skimmed, I found a big block of silicon on the engine block which after a long exploratory process i found to be sealing a corrosion right through the wall of the block which the previous owner failed to mention. I am fully aware of my stupidity in the sequence of those events so no need to remind me of that. What I am now wondering is how i should progress with this.

The model is a bx14E Preview 1989 with an s1g engine and as far as I am aware my options are as follows.
sell the car for parts
buy a completely new engine
buy a new engine block and refit the rest of it (all of which I have sitting in the boot)

I am most inclined to go with the latter of these options as I have been completely unable to find a carbureted equivelent engine( either s1g k1g or TU3 I believe) as they switched to fuel injection a couple of years after this model. But the fuel injected TU3 engines are common as anything and cheap as chips.
Does anyone know if I could take the engine block from one of these later TU3 engines and fit the top half of my early s1g engine onto it?

Any help would be much appreciated as despite all logic, I really do want to keep this car on the road

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jamescarruthers
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Re: replacement engine block

Post by jamescarruthers » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:12 am

Are you sure that the engine block has really rusted through? It seems unlikely! Is it not more likely that what you are experiencing is a rusty core plug? If it is, then they can easily be replaced, especially if the engine is out of the car.

If this is the case, take the chance to replace them all, they are a few £'s each
1987 Volvo 480 ES
1992 Renault Master Mk. 1. Machzone Chateau camper. 2.0 LPG

Previous BX's:
A966 XRL -- BX 16 TRS
H767 BEG -- BX 14 TGE
B316 AMP -- BX 14 E

Trafikontrol
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Re: replacement engine block

Post by Trafikontrol » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:13 am

I think that’s the original source of the hole but as it was blocked off so crudely by the last owner it’s corroded around it and through the top so even with a core plug there would still be leaks I think

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jamescarruthers
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Re: replacement engine block

Post by jamescarruthers » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:59 pm

Oh no! I see now! That is bad news.

I wonder if you could have the hole machined to the next size to remove the corrosion and then put a larger plug in?

I've just realised I was talking rubbish about you having the old suitcase engine. That is the XY type. This is good news as you have the later 1.4 engine which was fitted to loads of cars. I'd imagine that the block is the same throughout production and you just need to bolt on your newly refurbished cylinder head. As long, as you stick to 8V (16V will have extra oil passage ways I would guess)
1987 Volvo 480 ES
1992 Renault Master Mk. 1. Machzone Chateau camper. 2.0 LPG

Previous BX's:
A966 XRL -- BX 16 TRS
H767 BEG -- BX 14 TGE
B316 AMP -- BX 14 E

Trafikontrol
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Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:28 am
Location: London
My Cars: Citroen bx 14e preview

Re: replacement engine block

Post by Trafikontrol » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:19 pm

So you don’t think I’d be able to use a more modern engine block with the top half of my engine then?

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jamescarruthers
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Re: replacement engine block

Post by jamescarruthers » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:50 pm

No, I now think you probably could, just stick with 8 valve, not the 16 valve.

The mistake I made was that I only recognised the designation TU and wrongly assumed the S1G and K1G was the old suitcase engine.

Sorry for the confusion.
1987 Volvo 480 ES
1992 Renault Master Mk. 1. Machzone Chateau camper. 2.0 LPG

Previous BX's:
A966 XRL -- BX 16 TRS
H767 BEG -- BX 14 TGE
B316 AMP -- BX 14 E

Trafikontrol
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Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:28 am
Location: London
My Cars: Citroen bx 14e preview

Re: replacement engine block

Post by Trafikontrol » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:13 pm

It’s a strange one with the s1g as in the owners manual it says that all previews should be fitted with either a k1g or tu3 but the engine of mine is s1g So don’t really know but assume it’s very similar to the tu3 ? And what do you mean by suitcase engine? Sorry I’m quite new to this

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jamescarruthers
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Re: replacement engine block

Post by jamescarruthers » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:22 am

The "suitcase" engine is the 1.4 sized engine that was in Mk. 1 BX's and the first few years of Mk. 2 BX production. It's a completely different engine with gearbox in the sump and chain driven-- basically a much earlier design.

The engine in your car is much better than it, however I didn't mind the suitcase engine in my early 1.4. Some people hate them! I think it is the TU3A engine

‎Copied below from Wikipedia to show how widely available the TU3 engine you have is

XY

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA-Ren ... engine#XY‎
‎The PSA X engine is a family of internal combustion engines used in Citroën, Peugeot, Talbot and Renault automobiles. The X family was mainly used in superminis and the entry level models ofmidsize vehicles. It is commonly called the "Douvrin" or the "Suitcase" engine. It is designed and manufactured by the company "Française de Mécanique" for PSA and Renault.‎


‎The X design was introduced in 1972 with the Peugeot 104. It was an all-aluminium alloy SOHC inline-four design with two valves per cylinder driven by a chain, using petrol as fuel. It was applied transversely in front wheel drive vehicles only, tilted by an almost horizontal attitude of 72°. The integral transmission is mounted on the rear side of the crankcase (thus appearing to be underneath the power unit when it is mounted in the vehicle), and is driven by transfer gears which give a distinctive "whine" - a trait shared with the BMC A-Series engine, which uses a similar construction. Displacement ranged between 954 and 1,360 cc. The side mounting of the transmission onto the crankcase is what gives rise to the nickname "suitcase engine", as the transmission and engine assemblies resemble two halves of a suitcase when they are split for disassembly.

‎The X was used until 1990 in PSA vehicles - Renault discontinued the unit in 1982 when it reverted to its own Cléon-Fonte enginepowerplants when the R14 was replaced by the R9 & R11. It was replaced by the more modern belt driven camshaft TU which was introduced in 1986 in the Citroën AX. The TU engine was fitted with the now conventional end on gearbox with separate lubrication. The TU engine is an evolution of the X engine.‎

The XY was introduced in the place of the XZ. It had a displacement of 1,360 cc, with a bore of 75 mm (3.0 in) and a stroke of 77 mm (3.0 in). It was initially available only in a double barrel carburettor with 72 PS (53 kW), but later became available with single barrel, twin single barrel and twin double barrel carburettors. This one could reach 93 112 PS (68.5 or 82 kW), depending on the model it was meant for and the level of tuning.

The XY was applied in 60 PS (44 kW) to the Citroën Visa, Peugeot 104 and Peugeot 205, Talbot Samba and Renault 14 GTL. The 72 PS (53 kW; 71 hp) variant could be seen in deluxe versions of these models, such as the Samba Cabrio and 205 XT, the Citroën BX and the Renault 14 TS. The 80 PS (59 kW; 79 hp) version was reserved for the intermediate sports levels Visa GT, 205 XS/GT, Samba S and the 104ZS. The two most powerful variants were used exclusively in the Visa Chrono and Chrono II, which had a successful career in rallying, especially in France. A 1,440 cc with over 150 PS (110 kW) was used in the Group B racing model used by the factory team.

Model Output Notes
XY6B 72 PS (70 hp/52 kW) 2-bbl carb
XY? 112 PS (110 hp/82 kW) twin 2-bbl carb
XY7 60 PS (59 hp/44 kW) 1-bbl carb
XY8 80 PS (78 hp/58 kW) twin 1-bbl carb
XYR 93 PS (91 hp/68 kW) twin 2-bbl carb
TU Your better, later engine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_TU_engine#TU3‎
‎The PSA TU engine is a family of small four-cylinder engines used in the Peugeot and Citroën range of cars. It was introduced in 1986 with the Citroën AX, replacing the X family, although it shared many components with its predecessor. The TU is available in either petrol or a non-turbo Diesel variants, the latter called TUD.
‎‎


Overview
Manufacturer
Française de Mécanique
Production
Oct 1986 - 18 Dec 2014
Layout
Configuration
inline-four
Chronology
Predecessor
PSA-Renault X-Type engine
Simca Poissy engine
Successor
PSA EP engine (Prince engine)‎
‎‎
‎The TU engine is distantly related to the older X-Type engine - sharing a similar overhead camshaft architecture, but the key differences are the belt driven camshaft (the X is chain driven), and that the TU is mounted in a conventional upright position with a separate, end-on mounted transmission and unequal length driveshafts. The X engine, by comparison, had an integral transmission mounted on the side of the crankcase (giving rise to its popular nickname the "suitcase engine"), sharing a common oil supply and was mounted almost lying flat on its side within the car.
The TU engine is/was used in the following cars: Citroën: AX, Saxo, C2, C3, C4, BX, ZX, Xsara, C15, Nemo and Berlingo. Peugeot: 106, 205, 206, 207, 309, 306, 307, 405 ,Bipper, Partner and Hoggar, Samand Soren, Runna, iranian Peugeot 405 andPars.

The TUD engine was only used in 11 cars of which 6 were non-PSA models: the Citroën AX, Citroën Saxo, Citroën Xsara; Peugeot 106, Rover Metro/100-series, Nissan Micra, Maruti Suzuki Zen D/Di and Maruti Suzuki Esteem D/Di and ikco samand, Tata Indigo 1.4 TD the latter of tata, is a custom TUD engine, and is based on 1.5D.

PSA now stopped production of original TU engines, although EC engines, closely related to the TU5 unit, are now in production for emerging markets such as China and Russia and available in both 1.6 and 1.8 liter versions.‎


The TU3 has a displacement of 1360 cc, with a bore of 75 mm and a stroke of 77 mm. This engine has been one of the most used by the PSA Group, with applications in superminis, compacts and midsize cars, including a stint in competition use in the Citroën AX GT Cup and the Citroën AX GTI Cup, held in many European countries throughout the early 1990s in both circuit racing and rallying.

In its early years, it was available with either a single or double barrel carburetor, with fuel injection introduced in 1990 for the AX GTI and 106 XSi, capable of delivering 100 PS (73.5 kW) at 6600 rpm. The carburated versions gave way to fuel injection in 1992, while the sports version was retired in 1996.

Model Output Notes
TU3 A (not in use) 65 PS (64 hp/48 kW) 1-bbl carb
TU3 A 75 PS (73 hp/55 kW) 2-bbl carb catalyst
TU3 A/K 70 PS (69 hp/51 kW) 1-bbl carb‎
TU3 F2/K 75 PS (73 hp/55 kW) 2-bbl carb
TU3 FJ2/K 100 PS (98 hp/73 kW) FI
TU3 FJ2/Z 95 PS (93 hp/69 kW) FI catalyst
TU3 JP(in use after 2007 in Iran and China) 75 PS (73 hp/55 kW) FI catalyst
TU3 M/Z 75 PS (73 hp/55 kW) FI catalyst
TU3 S 85 PS (83 hp/62 kW) 2-bbl carb
Last edited by jamescarruthers on Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
1987 Volvo 480 ES
1992 Renault Master Mk. 1. Machzone Chateau camper. 2.0 LPG

Previous BX's:
A966 XRL -- BX 16 TRS
H767 BEG -- BX 14 TGE
B316 AMP -- BX 14 E

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jamescarruthers
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Re: replacement engine block

Post by jamescarruthers » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:34 am

This could always be a good time to swap in an AX GT engine! It's the same as yours but has better head, carb and intake bits I think so you can have a fastish 1.4 BX! Probably quite hard to get hold of though.

By the way, S1G And K1G seem to be sub-types of the TU3 engine so I think you'd be better searching for TU3 cars, rather than the sub types. For example these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223218558174 or https://ebay.us/B44DRy
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183482945625 or https://ebay.us/hdGS6w
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322863829739 or https://ebay.us/JyTvb9
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322824872387 or https://ebay.us/YYD539

Also, maybe fire a PM to Kitch on here who has plenty of 1.4 experience with BX, Saxos and AX for his advice.

I'd still be tempted to ask an engine place if they could repair your block though
1987 Volvo 480 ES
1992 Renault Master Mk. 1. Machzone Chateau camper. 2.0 LPG

Previous BX's:
A966 XRL -- BX 16 TRS
H767 BEG -- BX 14 TGE
B316 AMP -- BX 14 E

Trafikontrol
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Re: replacement engine block

Post by Trafikontrol » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:09 am

Thanks for all your help, love the idea of the ax gti engine but know that if I could track one of those down there’s no way I could bring myself to butcher it :) i reckon I’m gonna start by getting the block out and seeing if it can be fixed up, hadn’t really thought of that stupidly but you’re right probably the best option and if not try for one of the later blocks

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Re: replacement engine block

Post by Kitch » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:25 am

Finding a replacement block shouldn't be difficult. There will be some kicking around in the AX or Peugeot 205 circles. All the carb-fed TU3 variants will be fine (AX GT engine is pretty much the same, just has slight variations to cam & inlet side). That means you can go with a block from an AX, ZX or BX, or a Peugeot 106, 205 or 306.

When it comes to the injected ones, you need to stay with the alloy block. The AX GTi (not GT) used an iron block, along with the 106 XSi, and these used a different head & compression ratio. I'm not sure if the standard alloy blocks would be compatible with your head or not. They probably would be (which opens you up to a world of new possibilities) but you might then encounter issues with the stud pattern for the gearbox, as this changed in the mid-90's.

The damage on your block might be repairable, but it depends where it is. It can't rust as it's alloy, but there's a chance it's cracked (I've had that). Likewise, a core plug could have rusted through as mentioned above. It's whether the liner inside is cracked or not that is the bigger issue, as a cracked block can damage a liner. If it's running fine, just leaking coolant, you might be OK.