Turbo died? Opinions saught!

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Vanny
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Turbo died? Opinions saught!

Post by Vanny » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:10 pm

Symptoms;
> gradually diminishing boost from turbo (from 0.9 down to 0.75 bar)
> deffinate lack of power, certainly no kick when putting ones foot down
> death to fuel economy since fitting present turbo
> increase in crankcase oil pressure (can be felt with dip stick out, and dipstick is pushed out under driving.
> quite a bit of oil coming out of top union of engine to turbo oil pipe
> will smoke first thing in the morning after a long journey

Supporting factors;
> turbo is NOT the one that came with the engine
> turbo is from same 1.7td that failed with porous block/head gasket failure
> its my car and it has a track record of doing things like this!

Diagnosis;
Seals have failed between the turbine and air pressure is being forced into the oil gallery under boost. Incresed pressure is causing seapage of oil feed pipe, and increase crank case pressure. When parked, the duff seals are letting oil into the exhuast side of the turbo resulting in smoke on starting.

Resolution;
New turbo! I have two turbos, a xantia one and a direct replacement BX one. I think the Xantia one might have faults as it is (bearing whine/clatter when last run), other one is a 'pressumed good' unit from a reliable source.

Input required;
Before i sit and cry about my barsteward car, are there any other possibilities?
How impossible will it be to fit a turbo without removing the engine?

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Post by jeremy » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:38 pm

Yes - rings and pistons like last time!

Turbo cannot blow through oilways. Max boos 15 psi (1 bar) oil pressure 60 psi (4 bar)

If you strip the engine immediately the damage (ie bore wear) may not be bad and a second hand piston (its grooves may have widened) with new rings and bearings may allow it to run for years.

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Vanny
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Post by Vanny » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:39 am

jeremy wrote:Yes - rings and pistons like last time!
Last time? I dont remember having this sort of problem with this 1.9td engine before? I'm blonde (or will be iff the sun has its way), however the last problems i had with this engine where that a valve guide jammed under the power of a LHM filled alternator and thats what saw the shut of it in 2005. To my recolection (and having searched through the forum) i havent had problems with the 1.9td and crank case pressure! More than likely forgetting something Jeremy but your not getting confused with the failed 1.7 are you? that made a fair job of a gasket inside 3 weeks!

I see what your saying about the pressures though, at 0.7 bar there isnt much likelyness of blow by into an oil gallery at 4bar, perhaps i should try just nipping up the oil feed tube first?

If it where to be a piston/ring issue, how would it have been caused? a now total of 70k miles wouldn't cause issues to the rings/pistons/bores surely? I've seen severe rifling of bores before and this engine has so far been treated pretty well (dealer service history before i transfered, and much love ever since!).

If it is pistons/bores why would this affect the turbo? I've tried adjusting the wastegate both looser and tighter but this has made little difference, and tinkering with the idle and MAX fuel on boost has reduced smog on take off to almost nothing!

Hmm starting to consider reverting to the ole petrol engine!

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Post by jeremy » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:20 am

Vanny - perhaps I should have said first time. I was referring to the white car in its naturally aspirated original form - which if I recall wouldn't fire properly on one cylinder, the cure for which was turbo-diesel, and much re-plumbing.

As I'm rather grey now I suppose I may become confused and suffer from an apparently good memory of what happened many years ago. Confusion may reign in which case I apologise (or laugh)

Pistons are sealed by piston rings which are highly developed and accurate steel alloy bands fitted round the piston to seal the gap between it and the bore. All is nice when they are new, their lubrication is provided for by oil left in the hatchings left by the boring and honing tools, they fit nicely into clean pistons and bores and heat is transferred nicely away and as they seal well they don't get hot from a blast of combustion gasses.

Sadly however as time goes on - like the rest of us they don't get any younger and they can't do the things they could do in their youth. They can't make the same contact with the cylinder walls as they could, their contact with the grooves in the pistons isn't quite as close as it was due to carbon being deposited there and they now get hot and loose their temper.

There is also aditional hot gasses passing them and so you see that the things get hot - and in fact brittle. The grooves they run in get wider and eventually the rings break - usually one ring on one piston first. the breakage seems to be caused by excessive revving or something - often it seems to be - work the engine hard and its never the same again.

M

Post by M » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:40 am

Vanny -the voices are telling me BURN IT and claim the insurance moneyImage

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cavmad
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Post by cavmad » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:53 am

Don`t shoot the messenger here Vanny as you are fully aware of my technical `capabilities` but are the 1.7 and 1.9 turbo`s the same? I`m only wondering that as your car has a 1.9 motor and a 1.7 turbo is the turbo up to the job of handling the bigger engine?
As I say apologies if they`re both the same unit :D
Vauxhall apologist.

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Post by Stewart (oily!) » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:25 am

Vanny, that amount of blow by means that the engine is technically knackered, if your turbo oil seals had failed you would have continuous smoke all of the time the thing was runnung, massive clouds of it, gushing out on the overrun, what you have there is most likely a ring problem, the only reason your oil pipe is leaking is a poor seal there, try nipping it up.
It is possible to replace the turbo without taking the motor out but I dont think thats your route, I gave you a working turbo last time you were here, 1.7 and 1.9 turbos are no different , there are KKK or Garrett, only detail differences, Xantia ones have their inlet pipe held on with two bolts, BX with a hose clamp, In order to get you to France next month do you want my spare ZX motor? It had a new metal gasket fitted, and a belt and has sat in the front of my garage for a year now. PM or phone me to arrange.
Stewart
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Vanny
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Post by Vanny » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:08 pm

ah bugger it then, the car has a full 11 month MOT and tax till March so she can just be run into the ground. There's no way in hell im gonna do another engine change, and this shell is far too pretty to be getting rid of just now!

Death to the diseasel it is then, and off to something better for the next car me thinks (BX HDi anyone?)

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cavmad
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Post by cavmad » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:43 pm

Bit of a shame Vanny, not worth running it `as is` for a few months and having that engine off Stewart until such time as you can find the desire to fit it? I`m willing to help you put it in if you need an extra pair of hands.
Vauxhall apologist.

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ken newbold
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Post by ken newbold » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:28 pm

Vanny wrote:Death to the diseasel it is then, and off to something better for the next car me thinks (BX HDi anyone?)
Hows about a normal 17TZD then. ^^bx>

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Vanny
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Post by Vanny » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:11 pm

ken newbold wrote: Hows about a normal 17TZD then. ^^bx>
Then i'd become common! And i certainly don't want that.

I still use an Acorn computer for doing work on, i have a super maxi computer base unit and twin monitors, i drink ale and avoid larger where ever i can. Generally i DONT like to be like the other 99% of the population, and a HDi does sound like an interesting project for the future!

THat and adding Hydractive which Pleides recon is very possible!

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Post by Barnsley BXer » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:27 pm

Vanny wrote:
ken newbold wrote: Hows about a normal 17TZD then. ^^bx>
Then i'd become common! And i certainly don't want that.

I still use an Acorn computer for doing work on, i have a super maxi computer base unit and twin monitors, i drink ale and avoid larger where ever i can. Generally i DONT like to be like the other 99% of the population, and a HDi does sound like an interesting project for the future!


You don't happen to own facial fungus,do you?
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Dear Drooper............................

M

Post by M » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:12 am

Vanny wrote: Generally i DONT like to be like the other 99% of the population, and a HDi does sound like an interesting project for the future!
Sheeeeeet :!: - better hide my Xantia then next time you pop round. :wink:

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Vanny
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Post by Vanny » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:42 am

been looking around and found a HDi estate Xantia p-reg for £250, needs a clutch :D Shame i dont have space/money/time but i'll give it a year or so than hunt one down and have the engine!




Another question for the learned,
If the rings have gone, how does this stop the turbo building up pressure? i mean i understand theat the pressure will leak past the rings and into the oil ways, but how come i cant adjust the pressure any higher? I've wound the screw in substantially both way and it's made no effect!

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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:06 am

Vanny -

There are no mysteries in the turbo. It relies totally on pressure difference - i.e. a flow of exhaust gasses.
less flow - less turbo speed - less pressure on intake side
This in turn leads to less power.

Even if the turbo was on its way out - it would still function - but tell you the story by its wellknown melody : the horrible sound of vanes hitting the chamber or greatly increased whining noise.

Try do some research if the diesel rotary pump in fact is delivering fuel according to amount of air - i.e. manifold pressure. If its not doing so - you get exactly the symptom you have right now.

Another approach could be to disconnect the airducts running the engine as an n/a diesel. It should run perfect as such - with some 25-35% reduction in power compared to the turbo setup. I.e. nothing like a dead engine or so.
If it does not behave - then its not the turbo - but the basic engine at fault. Even the rotary diesel pump or fuel system at fault.
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak