19 NA Bosch pump on 17NA Engine

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Brian
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19 NA Bosch pump on 17NA Engine

Post by Brian » Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:31 pm

Has any one fitted a Bosch injector pump from a 19 N/A diesel engine to a 17 N/A one ?...

If so, how does the engine run and perform ?...

There is a genuine reason for asking this question as I suspect problems with the pump on the 17 RD. Carried out all the usual checks for air leaks etc and that has drawn a blank..

Removed the pump from my spare 17 N /A and the type and NR numbers are different, I suspect the spare is from a 19 N/A engine...

Pump details:

17RD in car
NR 0460 484 010
VER 171
Type 523

17RD Spare
NR 0460 494 240
VER 272-2
Type 529

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Post by AndersDK » Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:43 pm

I'd say its just the year of production that differs on these 2 pumps.

Bosch diesel pumps are known to be amazingly reliable and long lasting.
What are the symptoms anyway ?
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak

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Post by Brian » Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:06 pm

Hi Anders,

The syptoms are erratic running at low engine revs.

With engine on idle smooth running, raise the fuel lever gently to say 1/4 open and hold, no change to engine revs, after a few seconds the engine will pick up revs and remain constant. gently close the lever and hold again the engine will hunt..

Cheers

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Post by AndersDK » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:07 pm

First thing to do when rpm control goes haywock on a diesel engine :

- replace the last bit of fuel hose to the pump with a piece of clear PVC fuel hosing.
If there is any air bubbles - ANY AT ALL - seen in fuel going into the pump, then you have found 99.95% of your problem.

Its that simple really :shock:

Furthermore Bosch pumps are literally hysteric on rotten leak-off fuel hoses from the injectors - and the return fuel lines to the tank.
Go find those rotten fuel lines - replace them and you will enjoy the feeling of a new engine - I promise :wink:
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak

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Post by Brian » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:38 pm

Thanks for the guides, but I have carried out all of those, and it still does it's own thing.

As a last resort, l will set up a jocky tank of diesel in the engine compartment, and by pass the feed and return pipes to the tank, that will be the ultimate test..

I had a Roto Diesel pump on my Visa that started to accelerate on it's own, quite frightening when it first did that to me.
That turned out to be a bearing breaking up in the pump and shedding loads of small metal pieces throughout the pump internals.

Replaced that with a s/h Bosch pump and injectors from a C15 van, that cured it...

If there is any one who has a 19 NA diesel with a Bosch pump and could confirm the pump type, I would be obliged..
Last edited by Brian on Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Vanny » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:05 pm

try undoing all the fuel connections to the pump and blowing it out with compressed air. This has worked wonders for me in the past following eratic performance (favourite was to totally die when goin up hills, usually half way up!), however this did follow a number of occasions where the fuel tank was run totally dry!

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Fuel pumps.

Post by Geoffrey Gould » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:13 am

Hello fitting a 1-9 to a 1-7 will work with no problem at all. If you really want some fun fit a 2-1 XM pump to a 1-7.
As regards the wandering about of the running it does sound as if the pump might be worn. Have you tried the throttle spindle for slop and how about the anti-stall ajustment. Thought I would mention these as they are easy.

Pump code Timing.
From october 1987 VER 171-1 0.90 mm 0.035 in

early 1993 VER-R 171-3 0.89mm 0.035 in

april 1987 to april 1988 VER 272-1 0.83mm 0.033 in


from april 1988 VER 272-2 0.90 mm 0.035 in



All N/A devided between early and late engines. The codes should be visable with a bit of a clean. The pump timing is within a nats of being the same, a very slight tweek of the Max fuel screw may be necessary but try it with out altering anything first.( Just change the pump over.

Have fun.
Cheers.
Geoff.

PS the injectors and compressions are OK and have been checked??
1991 BX 1-7 td Auto.


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Post by docchevron » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:32 pm

Indeed, a 2.1 pump is a beautiful thing! However the 1.9 pump will go straight on.

Bosch pumps tend to wear with age and require resetting at intervals of about 150000miles. We have buses in work with effectivley the same pump (but obviousley fir a six cylinder engine), I spend most of my day "playing with the pumps on them cos they are so crap!"
Things to adjust are:
Slow running screw (minimum power screw), idle screws, maximum power (throttle) screw, and if the main plate has worn you may need to undo the 10mm nut on the top of the throttle arm, lift the throttle arm from the spindle, turn the throttle spindle with a screw driver until the revs raise just a touch then reinstall the throttle arm (be warned the return spring has a tendency to try and throw the throttle arm out the car!), then back the minimum power screw off till the revs settle back to idle. Should run smooth as silk then. Sounds complicated but it isn't.
Obviousley, as dad said, make sure theres no sideways movement in the throttle spindle and no leaks from it first. It is possible to change the spindle seals without bosch special tools, but by god its fiddly!!!
Cheers
Chris G
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Far too many BX's, a bus, an ambulance a few trucks, not enough time and never enough cash...

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Post by Brian » Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:04 pm

Thanks for the advice and info folks...

Yes, I am beginning to think that it's pump wear causing the symtoms.

The car has now covered 218,000 miles, I purchase it in may 1998 with 168,000 miles on the clock from a good friend, and the history was known..
So the pump missed the vital adjustment schedule at 150.000 miles !!!...

Just been checking the throttle spindles on the pumps, and the spare one is in much better condition, so will change the pumps over...

I will then dismantle the old one, purely an a excersize.

I understand there are some rubber pads that tend to break up on these old pumps.

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Post by AndersDK » Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:27 am

A french BX nutter did it. Pictures and text for the pictures (in french) to be found here :

http://bricofoy.free.fr/voiture/pompe/

Note the bosch repair/overhaul kit in the first picture.
Its sooooo nice not being the first one :wink:
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak

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Post by Brian » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:08 pm

Brilliant article that one, have seen it before, now I have saved it for future refference.

Wish I could read French.

It would also be very handy if some one could produce a diagram of the pump indicating what the various adjusments actually do, when moved either clock or anti clock.

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Post by Brian » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:52 pm

Update.

Spent some time moving the arm on the throttle spindle, and adjusting the stops, as mentioned by Chris G, but no inprovement.

Changed the pumps over, good job I had the drive cog as well because the drive shaft projection beyond the fixing flanges are different so are the drive cogs...

New pump has resolved the problem at low revs, but the overall performance is down.

Will have to fiddle with the adjustments..

As mentioned ealier, does any one have a sketch showing what the
various adjustments actually do...

Image

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Post by AndersDK » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:33 pm

Bet there is a schematic somewhere on the web showing this. Not yet seen it though.

From my experience you can adjust this way :

1) basic injection timing with a micrometer gauge after fitting the pump
2) coldstart device adjusting : easy peasy just make the cable a very tight fit against the stop
3) acc lever end stop sets the HOT engine idle revs. Dont get it too low or the engine will tend to lock itself into "shake, rattle and roll" mode. A little higher than a petrol, i.e some 850rpm minimum.
4) acc lever max stop sets the survival max revs at MOT (dont tamper with this). Usually some 5200rpm max.
5) any extra lever adjustable end stop - in conjonction with a mechanical stop - sets the stall tendency. I.e. the decay time of revs falling down when pedal released. Set to a calm revs decay.
6) on the end housing there would be a tamperproof counternut locked screw. This sets the fuelling over the working range. If set too strictly, the engine will be underfuelled and sloooow.
If set too far the engine will be overfuelled, working on the onset of - or into - the black sooth range. This will make the engine lively at first - then it feels like something very heavy drags the car - and it smokes black.
It must be set such the engine NEVER produces black smoke on flooring the pedal.
A heavy or fully loaded diesel should never produce black smoke - but GREY smoke.

From memory I believe the fuel is enriched if the screw is adjusted OUT.
Hope members will confirm/correct on this.
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak

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Pump

Post by Geoffrey Gould » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:10 pm

Hi Im glad it worked out OK. Cant draw but will try to tell you where things are (working out a picture will take some time!!) ,
Timing belt end on left and injection pipe end on right.Inj pipe end above the pipes there is a threaded stud locked by a 13mm nut , the end of the stud having a hex and screwdriver slot on it. This is the max. fueling screw and to increase the fueling is screwed in.(clockwise looking at end of pump ie normal thread.)It is sometimes locked with a collar. Mark with a dot of paint or tipex Before adjusting so you know where you started from. Turn a small amount at a time.1/8 of a turn or so.
Connected to a cable, on the back face of the pump, is a small lever that has its travel limited by a set screw at each end locked by a 10mm nut.
This controlls the tickover and max cold start revs. The long set screw above this controlling the travel of the throttle quadrant (closed) is the anti stall adjustment.
There is also a long set screw controlling the max throttle quadrant position (open). This is the max rev set screw.
The spring loaded lever on the front face of the pump is a manuel Stop lever.
This has been a bit quick and I will try to do a better one a bit later.
Cheers.
Geoff.
PS The difference in the length of the "nose" of the pump is because the later pump has a longer and stronger shaft bearing.
1991 BX 1-7 td Auto.


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Geoffrey Gould
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Diagram.

Post by Geoffrey Gould » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:56 pm

Hello Brian if this works there should be a diagram of a pump,hopefully.Image
Cheers.
Geoff
1991 BX 1-7 td Auto.


I MAY NOT BE ALWAYS RIGHT BUT I AM
NEVER WRONG.