Few Issues

BX Tech talk
User avatar
Tim2cv
BXpert
BXpert
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:35 pm
Location: Garage Usually - Derby

Few Issues

Post by Tim2cv » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:48 pm

My car finally has an mot but has a few annoying issues, least bothered first.

Rear arm bearings have seen better days. you can tell when you drive it and I can see them a little bit. also when i had the tracking done i saw they were out on the measuring thing with the light.

drop links are dead and rattle alot on every bump

Most importantly:

THE CAR FEELS SO SLOW!
It's dead flat and tight and my mate who drove it agreed. His TZD Turbo felt faster!!! Thats just wrong!

It is still whirry but i'm not convinced its the altenator belt anymore having slackened it off... Maybe its the cambelt? hope not as that will be a pain in the ass! Seems next week i have alot of work to do.

Any clues? why is it so slow? The green beast (i wish i still had it) was fast as fcuk!

TIM
_________________
2CV6 1986 Dolly

MEHARI 1976

DYANE 6 1981 - GF'S CAR!

www.bx16valve.co.uk/forum

www.myspace.com/tim2cv

User avatar
Ian_Fearn
Spender lotta cash on Citroens
Posts: 2231
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:51 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Few Issues

Post by Ian_Fearn » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:05 pm

Tim2cv wrote:It's dead flat and tight and my mate who drove it agreed. His TZD Turbo felt faster!!! Thats just wrong!
That mate would be me and its true, this car is fcuking SLOW!
Over and out from me

adamskibx
BXpert
BXpert
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:26 pm

Post by adamskibx » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:15 pm

I would check for loose inlet manifold and throttle body bolts. A leak here could create a whirry sound and reduce power.

After this, I would give it a general service and check valve clearances, as well as cam shaft timing. If all this fails I would suspect the engine management, and elliminate bits of that. Finally I would do a compression test, and if its not already smoking under high revs (try accelerating hard in second at night with car headlamps behind you, a petrol car should not produce a visable result), I would suspect the valves are still not adjusted correctly or a few of them are burnt, but thats the least likely scenario.

User avatar
Kitch
Over 2k
Posts: 6183
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:36 pm
Location: Fareham, Hants
x 47

Post by Kitch » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:34 pm

It should absolutely destroy a TZD :lol: You have problems :(

Leading from what Adam said, check inlet manifold gaskets and the little sqaure one that bolts the TB to the manifold.
Service is good, you can't adjust the valve clearances though, they have hydraulic tappets. Timing is very important, how did you time it up?
I also suggest compression test.
Could it just be tired?

But as I said on MSN, sort your air feed out. These engines draw alot of air in for their size, reduce the flow and you make noticable differences.
Its certainly the only car I've ever tried an induction cone on and found it improved things!

User avatar
Ian_Fearn
Spender lotta cash on Citroens
Posts: 2231
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:51 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Post by Ian_Fearn » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:45 pm

There is something very flat about this engine, i suspect the timing is out as it feels very retarded.

Vanny put this thing back together so maybe he can shed some light.

Theres no hesitation as such, its simply just gutless.
Over and out from me

User avatar
Kitch
Over 2k
Posts: 6183
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:36 pm
Location: Fareham, Hants
x 47

Post by Kitch » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:59 pm

Some just are slower than others, you get good ones and bad ones.

Even if you really really thrap it, all the way to the limiter, its still gutless? Sounds like timing is out. The timing is controlled by the tensioners on these.

Sounds really funny, but go out and thrap it really hard and film the speedo and rev counter and i'll compare it with mine :lol: Reason being is that they often don't feel all that quick for some reason, but they are. Mine only feels quick if I have no passengers, otherwise it feels like a 1.4 :shock:

User avatar
Ian_Fearn
Spender lotta cash on Citroens
Posts: 2231
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:51 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Post by Ian_Fearn » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:04 pm

No this really is slow. My TD would eat this for brekkie.

Its not like a 16v normally is. This one just doesnt want to rev, its smooth but flat.

When Tim gets back we'll have a gander round his throttle body as i've seen all sorts of bits missing on other cars.

I think this whining/hissing noise is the clue here, but if the engine was getting too much air surely the engine would be hesitating? Just a theory worth pondering.....
Over and out from me

User avatar
Kitch
Over 2k
Posts: 6183
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:36 pm
Location: Fareham, Hants
x 47

Post by Kitch » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:06 pm

An Mi can never get too much air :lol:

They love it. If the mixture is too weak it would pink its nuts off, I personally think it sounds like it wants more to be honest.

jeremy
Over 2k
Posts: 2112
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:58 am
Location: Hampshire UK

Post by jeremy » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:18 pm

What can affect the general performance:

Rings/bores - possible but cars often go very well when rather worn. First signs would be oil consumption and/or blowby - oil leaking from joints you didn't know it had - and the need to stand back when you removed the oil filler cap.

Bottom end bearings - may rattle but wont slow it till a rod comes through the block.

Valves - possible but tend to go on one cylinder first - so exhaust pulses would be heard. A compression test would be re-assuring.

Valve timing - obviously important. You mention a wirring noise - could be a tensioner - which is dangerous for the short term (and long term for that matter)- but could allow the timing to slip a bit which might be important.

Tappet clearances shouldn't be an issue as they are hydraulic. It might be possible for them to tighten up but I think you would have to use an oil rsembling lard at high temperatures for this to happen. Too large a clearance will make loads of noise - and the thing would sound like an old Escort, Fiesta or Ka.

So now we're left with tuning issues. Simple first - have a look for sparks with the engine running after dark.

Do you think its misfiring - or just weak? Misfiring could be leads and electrics - general lack of power suggests fuel. Leads can be metered - should be below 20K Ohms, distributor cap and rotor arm (if it has one ) can be inspected and cleaned.

Before getting to detailed fuel injection problems - all pipework and gaskets must be secure.

User avatar
Mike E (uk)
1K Away
1K Away
Posts: 1115
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:10 am
Location: High Wycombe, Bucks

Post by Mike E (uk) » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:19 pm

Lack of power is not usually a mechanical fault.

Most likely is an HT related problem,
next most likely is an air leak type problem.
then the most likely is a fuel related problem.Fit a new fuel filter etc.
Then you have to start checking mechanical parts, compression etc.

BX16V seem rather prone to HT problems: arcing HT leads, failing distributor caps

Have a look under the bonnet with the motor running in the dark-look for sparks. (Mind fingers on the rotating bits!)

Mike

User avatar
Vanny
Merseyside resident
Merseyside resident
Posts: 3422
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 11:48 pm
Location: BX Pub
My Cars: BX 16v Ph2
x 11

Post by Vanny » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:22 pm

hmm, does sound a little weird. Its had a new gasket (fibre payen one), head bolts (payen) and a dayco belt. The head came off a running engine which to the best of my knowledge was in good running order (might have to ask toddman as it cam from him!).

The dizzy was a cheap intermotor one (in a rush to make it move and not so bothered about being a genuine citroen one until we had it running) so that could very well be the problem. We never drove it (far) when it was back together, probably only a could of feet forward then straight back inot the garage again, as such i have no idea how it was running after the head change.

For tensioning, Luke lent me his timing pins so timing shoul dbe okay, however as i dont own a tensioner i had to rely on the minimal instructions from the haynes manual. As such i suspect this is quite probably where the problem lies in that (as mentioned) the timing is fine adjusted by the tensioners so could very well be out!

User avatar
Kitch
Over 2k
Posts: 6183
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:36 pm
Location: Fareham, Hants
x 47

Post by Kitch » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:03 am

I used drill bits that rattled around both times now, and both cars go well :lol: Must be flukey.

The red one is much quicker though.

User avatar
Cornishbx16v
BXpert
BXpert
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:41 pm
Location: Cornwall

Post by Cornishbx16v » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:36 pm

whip the cam cover off and check the timing on the puleys! as kitch said you can use drill bits for the job but the proper pins are ideal! i used lukes pins when i did mine! (i aded the slightly beefier crank pulley bolt with the red ends! after a slight mishap with the threaded bar that was in there!!)
make sure the crank pulley is in place and hte pins ought to slot in and out wiht no friction! also may be worth noting what number pulleys are on what cam!! 2 and 2, 2 and 4 etc!!
if thats fine then check your cap and arm if it was a cheapo may not be giving enough spark! the mi's do like a good spark!
Timmo.

After all I AM CORNISH!!!!

www.bx16v.com
www.bx16v.co.uk/forum
www.bx16valve.co.uk

jeremy
Over 2k
Posts: 2112
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:58 am
Location: Hampshire UK

Post by jeremy » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:48 pm

When I wrote my earlier answer I didn't realise the cambelt had been changed - and with that and Vanny6's comments in mind I'd immediately check the valve timing.

Valve timing is often ignored but s vitally important on these very high performance engines.

Its not just a matter of whole teeth - if you look at books on engine tuning - you'll see that there are instructions for getting it exactly right - like filing out the keyway and packing it to get the position right.

This means that with engines with tensioners on the pull side ilike the 16 valve it is absolutely vital to get the timing right - certainly no possibility here of wacking it together and saying its OK here. It would seem that the inlet camshaft timing is vital - but the exhaust should be checked just in case it was nearly right when the belt was fitted bt is in fact 1 tooth out when the inlet camshaft is timed correctly.

User avatar
Tim2cv
BXpert
BXpert
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:35 pm
Location: Garage Usually - Derby

Post by Tim2cv » Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:13 pm

wow, seems like i have alot to check. Its a 1990 H reg series 2 with no cat or lambda thingys. Its done 142k and doesnt appear to smoke. I fitted new bolts and gaskets to the inlet side of things and torqued them up correctly so shouldnt be leaking there. The car does hunt abit on idle, 100rpm max i suppose but seems to runs fine on tickover. Exhaust joints seem fine and recently passed the mot on emmisions no sweat.
CO 2.73% vol
HC 258ppm
passed on idle speed and smoke level too.
I have fitted new leads and plugs and this improved the tickover abit from when i first ran it. Metal and rubber fuel lines changed too with no air leaks as new clamps fitted too and tightened up well. ASAIK the AFM hasnt been opened at any point and seems to have its original seal on it still. All contacts are clean and nothing looks loose or missing a connector. It doesnt missfire but I will check whats been mentioned in the earlier posts when i can.
How easy is it to check the timing? can it be done using a strobe on these cars?
Cheers
TIM

p.s this is the car in question

Image
2CV6 1986 Dolly

MEHARI 1976

DYANE 6 1981 - GF'S CAR!

www.bx16valve.co.uk/forum

www.myspace.com/tim2cv