Fuel (vegetable oil) question.

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cavmad
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Fuel (vegetable oil) question.

Post by cavmad » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:54 pm

Having heard that BX`s will start and run on vegetable oil can someone please explain in laymen`s terms how this works?
I`m told that chip shops can supply an endless supply of such a `fuel` but is there any types I need to avoid, will it need to be filtered (and what type of filter would be best) and what is the legal aspect of this please?
As ever all help gratefully received, thanks.
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:10 pm

Hello

A search over on Andyspares will reveal a mass of info, in fact there is (another) thread running right now about this. The topic crops up every two months on that forum, people don't seem to understand the search function very well.

have a look at this site http://www.bio-power.co.uk/ it'll tell you all you want to know. Most chippies I've asked however are now using something called Frymax, which is solid when cold and doesn't need to be changed as frequently as veg oil. Plus they usually have an outlet for waste already.
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Post by cavmad » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:48 pm

Thank`s Oscar, didn`t think to look on Andyspares but I will check it out this afternoon. Appreciated your reply.
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Mike E (uk)
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Vegi power

Post by Mike E (uk) » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:46 pm

I have heard from a good source that 20% cooking oil can be added to a BX diesel tank with no other changes necessary.
Not sure about turbo D versions though.

You are of course evading tax by doing this, which is illegal in some countries.

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Post by ken newbold » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:57 pm

I'm not sure about this, but isn't cooking oil more expensive than diesel?
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Post by cavmad » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:07 pm

It seems that you can legally register to run on vegetable oil, you pay tax on the amount you have used. The cost of the tax seems to vary (according to the dicussion on Andyspares forum) but it IS cheaper than diesel. If you believe what some people have said, and I have no reason to disbelieve them, you can run up to about 80% or more vegetable oil. Most suggest a weaker mix (i.e more diesel than vege oil) in the winter. There does seem to be some sort of confusion (in my head!) as to whether they will run on new vege oil or `recycled`-as in from restaraunts and chippies.
I`m damn sure I`ll be trying it though-apparantly Tesco and someone else sell it fo about 48p per litre.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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Post by ken newbold » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:13 pm

If you run on recycled vegie oil, does that mean your exhaust will stink like a chippy and you'll have loads of hungry dogs chasing you down the road. :lol:
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Post by jeremy » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:28 pm

I think the real question is 'Would you mind if it did?'

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Post by cavmad » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:59 pm

jeremy wrote:I think the real question is 'Would you mind if it did?'

jeremy
If you run on recycled vegie oil, does that mean your exhaust will stink like a chippy and you'll have loads of hungry dogs chasing you down the road.


I don`t mind in the slightest and I`d be quite happy to have a few dogs running down the road after me though I`d prefer girls. I wonder if I can put some Lynx in it as well? :lol:
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vegi power

Post by Mike E (uk) » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:40 pm

You can add neat vegi oil at 20%, but if you want to run 100%
you will have to process the oil first into bio-diesel.

Old chip fan oil must be cleaned and processed and methanol is added too IIRC. I read the whole process in some detail on the web, but it is quite involved but it takes up a lot of space and time.

To be worthwhile, you have to make a lot of it. That would be hundreds of gallons a year. If you do pay the tax, it becomes very questionable as you could earn more per hour doing something else.

(Converting a petrol BX to LPG would probably be a more time and cost effective way of reducing transport costs.)

I have heard that in France farmers form co-operatives to grow the oil and produce their bio-D without paying taxes.

:lol:


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Post by cavmad » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:15 pm

Sounds like new at 20% may be the answer then-could be a right load of old mither filtering and then mixing the old stuff. I only want to register for the tax as I don`t fancy being caught without mentioing it as it`s probably the same as using cherry and that means a £500 on the spot fine and another £170 if you haven`t got it on you because they`ll tow it off to Manchester and you have to collect from there once you`ve paid. Once it`s registered it should be o.k and it goes without saying I wouldn`t dream of forgetting to mention every last drop that I put in :lol:
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Post by Vanny » Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:35 pm

gang of wimps, you can go for a lot higher % mix at even low temperatures!

So long as you have a Bosch pump you can just lob it in! A friend of mine who used to work for a very well known american fast food company has done huge chunks of research and basically just lobs it in as and when, so far the only problem he's had was that he needed to replace his clutch to get the full power back out (old one was almost down to studs both sides!).


Mixes
Basically the mixture is largely controlled by the temperature outside which controls how 'runny' the oil is. Unfortunately vege oil starts to solidify at much higher temperatures than that of normal diesel, so hence the need to either make it more runny of heat it up! Once it starts to get to winter you need to turn it to biodiesel in order to keep it flowing, basically you break down molecular chains using various chemicals including meths, all easily obtainable. In the winter even cutting with normal diesel wont generally be enough to keep it thin, but you can then heat this mixture to make sure it doesn't go stiff. Best option is still to trun it to biodiesel, but remember that the BX has a plastic fuel tank which should keep in more residual heat than a steel tank.

Another thing about heating is that much of the fuel that goes through the pump returns to the tank, warm, so you should only need to heat it a little at the start then it will take care of its self!

Also possible is to run two fuel tanks, one diesel and one veg (who REALLY needs a spare tyre?) problem then is you need various switching gear and added electrics etc the idea is you start on diesel and switch to veg once the veg is warm by running the return diesel through the veg tank, all a bit complicated!

Buying the oil
Well this one is still being tested! Fast food oil needs a lot of filtering and generally ends up with lots of salt and food in it, which can be difficult to get out, however it provides the highest gains as it costs very little! It will generally be more broken down having been boiled, bashed and abused so less heating will be needed, however you need to be sure of the source! So far there have been no problems running this on a 1.9TD!

Other option (generally easier and quicker) is to buy it from the super market! Its hard to get it on the cheap in bulk but smart price's own seems to do just fine! Personally i think its got more poke than diesel but i think i'm being fooled by my urge to get food fast!

Legal
In order to run biodiesel in the car you have to do two things, be registered for waste disposal, and declare the tax (you have to do both of these regardles of source!).

The licence (available from the Environment Agency) costs around £160 for THREE years, got to be worth it! Thats all there is to it really, you have to have certain approved things like containers etc but these are easy to sort out!

Next declaring tax, bit of a grey area but it seems to be clearing! The government seem to want you to declare it as 'biodiesel' and charge you 27p/litre, but you are meant to declare it as an alternative fuel and get charged 24p/litre! I've heard various rollocks on the net about it being 45p/litre, from waht i can tell this is somewhere around the tax on normal fuel or something, but not related to the veg!

VAT on purchase is something that hasn't been figured out either! If you go to the supermarket and buy veg oil then its food so you dont pay VAT, but as your using it as a fuel then the theory is that it should be declared and VAT paid with one small problem! There isn't anyway to actually pay the VAT unless you become VAT registered and are spending the £75000 or what ever to actually become registered. I dont think i'm gonna be using that much fuel!


Current standing

Well the paper work is on its way! My mate is gonna get registered first for now while we get the operation running, then we can take on a disposal contract for someone and at that point i will get registered (the waste oil can't be sold on without huge facilities! So i have to be registered as well!), following that i'll let you know what its like. From experimentation done so far it does smell but the smell can be reduced to verious extents, we are still working on that though! Thing is if your registered handler etc then who cares who can smell it!!



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Post by cavmad » Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:04 pm

Thanks Vanny and everyone else for the advice. From all the help I`ve had on this matter I`ve decided to use `new` vegetable oil for now and will try and find the form I need to declare tax on it. Does anyone know where I can get this from please? I`ve looked on Andyspares but it`s mind boggling trying to find the correct form.
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Post by jeremy » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:34 pm

I haven't looked but it may be worth looking at the Customs website - other govt agencies have sites with download facilities for forms etc as well as details of rules and practice.

jeremy

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Post by tom » Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:30 am

Apart from running a motorbike once on Avgas and acetone, when I was much younger (And one occasion when Avgas was used to find out how fast a 900Turbo could spend your money if you tuned it quite a lot - 7MPG,) I have never really taken much notice of the veg oil craze. There is a lot of work involved in making your own; the Revenue Men have to get involved if you don't want to end up in the Strangeways hotel and the savings don't justify the time spent doing it for a 10% reduction in your fuel bill. That can only be a 5% reduction in your motoring costs. The BX handbook informs me that increasing my speed from 65MPH to 80MPH
increases my fuel consumption by25% so by slowing from 80 (my minimum motorway cruising speed) to 65, I'm saving 20%. Of course the journey takes longer, putting about ten minutes on top of my ninety mile run home. I shall get better than 60 MPG out of my next tankful, though.

Like the Deity said:
"Speed costs money. How fast d'ya wanna go?"