retrofitting a diesel particle filter

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toddao
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retrofitting a diesel particle filter

Post by toddao » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:20 pm

Hello, I am running a BX 1.9 diesel here in Germany but suffering from escalating emissions taxes. They've just gone up again and I'm trying to find out about the possibility of fitting a diesel particle filter to reduce the bill for what is an economical car. Anyone got any ideas? Is one available? Hardly see BX's here cos of these taxes.Thanks
Todd


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MULLEY
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Post by MULLEY » Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:54 pm

Sorry i dont know anything about particulate filters, have u tried the net to find someone local to you who may have the knowledge?

How bad are the emissions on your car then in comparison to new cars?

Reason for asking is that only recently in the UK they changed the road tax rules so that all new cars have an emissions test to determine what duty you pay, any cars prior to this system in place they just use the engine size & dont get an emission test (excpet when getting an mot an emissions test is done but this doesnt determine the road tax duty, only whether your car is roadworthy or not).

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Post by ken newbold » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:43 pm

Would it be possible to fit a Catalytic converter from say a Xantia diesel?

I know these have no Lambda probe to worry about, it would be just a case of welding one into the front pipe.

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Post by jeremy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:19 pm

Particulate filters are I think relatively new - and probably were introduced with the C5. I don't know much about them except they durn the particles they collect at regular intervals, using Eloys fluid as a fluid. This in turn needs topping up every 70,000 and costs plenty.

There have been some postings on Frenchcarforum recently (try searching - eloys may - produce results) The British attitude to these things basically is that if they are no better than the catalyst - they're probably just another expensive gimmick.

However if your tax comes down if you have certain items - then it may be worth a serious look. As has been explained here our tax is set on what the car could do when new - so improvements make no difference - so there is no encouragement to pursue these things here.

If the tax does come down by fitting these things - do they have to be done professionally - or does a box in the exhaust and a tank with a label saying Eloys Fluid do the job?

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Post by Vanny » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:19 pm

some late xantias supposedly had them on, but im pretty much with mulley having only a vague idea how they work and what they do!

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Post by MULLEY » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:29 pm

Instead of going down the route you proposed (probably expensive), how about using some engine/injector cleaner & some fully synthetic oil along with some of that modern high performance diesel fuel you can get these days. These things should get your emissions down?

Dont forget to give the car a good run before turning up for the emission test so that the engine is nice & warm, this should reduce emissions as well?

What does everyone think?

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Post by toddao » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:26 am

I'm new to all this stuff, I think Peugout Citroen pioneered the diesel particle fílter with the small common rail diesel engine about 4/5 years ago. The main problem is once the particles have been collected they then have to be burned off at quite a high temperature to avoid having to clean the thing manually.This seems the most complex problem when retro-fitting, how this proceedure is managed.
I don't believe the emissions are particularly bad on my car ( it returns very high mileage per litre but all diesel drivers are familiar with the start up fall-out!) but they're trying to get old diesels off the road ( for the environment or new car sales?) . I've got a 33 year old diesel Merc commercial but this is classified as an 'old-timer' and avoids taxes. The BX is only 20yrs so I'm paying a lot, the filter would reduce the bill 60% in theory.
I am trying here but technical discussions are limited by my German. The tax is based on the engine size rather than actual emissions monitoring.Maybe this issue comes to UK eventually? Cheers!
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Post by MULLEY » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:02 pm

Just to understand what you have said, the emissions is irrelevant in Germany, its the engine size, so whats the point of a particulate filter?

Unless there is a discount if one of these devices is fitted to your car & then the road tax duty is lowered.

Is my understanding correct now?

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Post by jeremy » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:05 pm

I think the C5 system is that the particle filter arrangement is linked to an ECU - and periodically it burns the particles, using the Eloys fluid to get the necessary high temperature.

The Eloys fluid is extremely expensive and the initial charge supplied with the car lasts about 70,000 miles.

Retro-fitting using used parts will probably be impossible due to the electronics involved unless they are installed as a stand-alone system.

The impressive economy claims for the common rail engines are partly due to electronic control, direct injection, and also and very importantly - the use of extremely high injection pressures. BX injection pressures rose to a peak with the TD engiunes when they were about 1200psi - and the HDi uses about 10,000psi. This produces much smaller droplets and hence better combustion (and may be a reason the compression is dropped from 22 or 23 : 1 to 18 : 1) Some of these engines also use 3 pulses through extremely expensive injectors to eliminate diesel knock at low revs.

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Post by toddao » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:24 am

It's a bureacratic spaghetti here when it comes to cars and paperwork. They do monitor the emissions ( mine are acceptable) but they tax according to the PSI of the engine and there are different categories : cat/non-cat or diesel/diesel with particle filter. If a particle filter could be fitted then I would take the car to the TÜV station (MOT) and they would re-categorize its tax class. The 1.7 turbo D is a lower tax class than my 1.9 D though I believe it has higher fuel consumption and thus greater emissions! I should tell you that I pay €710 ( next year will be over €1000!!) per year in tax for the privelege of driving my BX here in Germany! How much is tax in UK now?

Yeah, I think it's impossible to retrofit one of the new Citroen particle filters, for the reasons that you mention. Sell my BX ( no-one would buy it here) and buy a Berlingo? ( sounds like a disease) Nah.

Been looking on the net and finding a few leads. My Citroen friend here has an XM D and he's getting burnt with tax too so that's got him sniffing about now. He seems to think there's a solution.. the quest continues
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Post by jeremy » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:11 am

Can't you tax it in another country? - A number of hauliers here find it worthwhile.

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Post by toddao » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:57 am

My German father-in-law wants me to register his Merc diesel camper van in Uk cos next year he's got to pay €2000 tax! Would be complicated for the BX : I've got local numbers which means I can cross in and out of Switzerland without too much hassle. Before had plates from the next area and they stopped me everytime for a lengthy check. Imagine with Uk plates!? There are many other reasons in the spaghetti paperwork too.
Now, if you could persuade Switzerland to join the E.U..? Then Uk to adopt the Euro!?
Todd


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capri
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Post by capri » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:58 pm

toddao wrote:My German father-in-law wants me to register his Merc diesel camper van in Uk cos next year he's got to pay €2000 tax! Would be complicated for the BX : I've got local numbers which means I can cross in and out of Switzerland without too much hassle. Before had plates from the next area and they stopped me everytime for a lengthy check. Imagine with Uk plates!? There are many other reasons in the spaghetti paperwork too.
Now, if you could persuade Switzerland to join the E.U..? Then Uk to adopt the Euro!?
You might be surprised, actually. I've driven into and out of Switzerland twice without getting stopped once, on British reg plates. Once managed to drive the entire length of the country in one day, not remembering we needed a vignette until we were out the other end! I think we were damn lucky not to have been stopped! :lol:
1984 Black Ford Capri 2.8 Injection (Specialised Engines Stage II) - Pride & Joy
1996 Hermes Red Citroen Xantia TD SX Estate - Autoroute Cruiser

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capri
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Post by capri » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:00 am

Oops, double post. Sorry!
1984 Black Ford Capri 2.8 Injection (Specialised Engines Stage II) - Pride & Joy
1996 Hermes Red Citroen Xantia TD SX Estate - Autoroute Cruiser