Fast Ticking From PR

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roscoe
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Fast Ticking From PR

Post by roscoe » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:53 am

I just regassed my front spheres and had the accumulator sphere checked as well - it was still up to the correct pressure. I reseated the ball bearing behind the accumulator sphere with a large brass screw I ground down - although this didn't seem to make any difference to the ball bearing, it was still loose in its' seat. After putting it back together, bleeding via the pressure release screw and doing some citarobics, the ticking from the pressure regulator is actually faster than it was before - now is ticking about every 5-6 seconds. The car rises properly and fairly quickly, the brakes all work Ok, although the rear rises a bit when I brake hard, and I'm stumped!
Any ideas on where to look, things to check etc. most appreciated.
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Roscoe
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Post by jeremy » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:53 pm

Try raising the car to full height and see if the ticking slows. The 4 suspension spheres then act as accumulators.

The re-seating of the non-return valve isn't supposed to affect the ball at all - that is why you use a brass punch. The intention is to re-surface the seat in the regulator body. The ball bearing is intended to be a loose fit. It is causgt up in the flow through the port and held onto its seat by hydraulic pressure. Reverse the flow and it comes off its seat and allows the LHM to flow past it.

Jeremy

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Post by tom » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:17 pm

You have air in your back brakes to begin with. This can upset the doseur valve and has been known to affect the tick time but I'm willing to bet that you haven't screwed the pressure relief screw in tightly enough.

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Post by roscoe » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:35 pm

Ok Tom and Jeremy - will check both tightness of pr bolt (I'm pretty sure I reefed it down enough, but will double check tonight, and also with car on full height. As for bleeding back brakes, I figured I'd have to do that but have been dreading it as I'm sure the bleeders will be rusted solid and I don't want to break/strip them...might have to bite the bullet and work on them.
Jeremy, if the ticking slows when the car is on full height, what does that point to as the issue then?
cheers,
Roscoe
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Post by jeremy » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:55 am

I suspect the accumulator sphere is no good. How was it tested? - very few people have the equipment to test them and as new ones are only about £20 most people simply replace with new rather than regassed.

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Post by roscoe » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:27 am

The sphere was tested at the local Citroen dealer on their sphere testing machine - they said the pressure was only 4 bar below what it should be (was 58 vs 62). They regassed the two front spheres (were at 7 bar) and then retested on their tester to make sure they were OK. The tester looks like any other one I've seen - a pump, pressure reg, gauges, etc.
cheers,
Roscoe
1991 TZD
2004 Peugeot 307
1990 Mitsubishi Express Van - Alpaca Transporter

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Post by roscoe » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:05 pm

Been out working on it tonight and with car on max height and settled, ticking interval is about 8 seconds. With car on normal height and settled, ticking is 3-4 seconds. Pressure reg release bolt is tight, car rises fairly evenly from low to high and takes about 10-15 seconds to do so. No sign of high LHM return into reservoir, so makes me think Jeremy is onto something with accumulator sphere. Next step is swap over the one from my 16V (tick interval is close to a minute on it) and see if things improve..but that's a job for another day :) .
cheers,
Roscoe
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Post by roscoe » Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:44 pm

Bled the rear brakes today - took about 1/2 litre of LHM out of each side with very few air bubbles in the LHM - came out in a nice solid stream from both sides. I also then swapped the accumulator sphere with the one from my 16V that only ticks every 45 seconds or so to see if that made any difference. Results not good - although rear end doesn't rise as much on braking (still does but only a little bit), the ticking interval on normal height is still 2-3 seconds, on highest setting it varies from 8-15 seconds or so. I can't see any strong LHM flows into reservoir but haven't pulled the individual return lines off to check each one. I did the Citarobics about 10 times or so, the car rises smoothly and quickly from the bottom to top - about 10 seconds or so with the stop lamp only coming on intermittently at the start and only for a couple of seconds. This has got me stumped - is it a bad FD or weak pump - what else could be causing the pressure to drop so fast - maybe the PR itself is bad - although I haven't heard of these things giving trouble.
cheers,
Roscoe
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Post by cauchoiskev » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:40 pm

Hello, Roscoe,

I believe you can forget about the pump and the FD. If they fail, the ticking can't speed up, quite the contrary in fact.

It seems to me that fast ticking can only have four sources :

1) Internal leaks
2) External leaks
3) Dodgy accumulator
4) Dodgy pressure regulator

Pull off the return lines one by one to check the internal leaks. If the road is not soaked in LHM underneath your car I presume you have no external leaks. You have swapped the accumulator for a known good one, so my bet is on the PR (they have indeed been known to fail) or a big internal leak : the brake valve for example.

Good luck.

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Post by roscoe » Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:17 am

I haven't pulled the return lines off yet to check for internal leaks, there are no external ones at all, and the brake valve (doseur) was replaced with a rebuilt one about a year and a half ago - was supposed to fix the fast ticking then and it didn't....(another 'specialist' repair task...). Anyway, I tried shutting the engine off and raising the height lever to see what happened - to see if the accumulator was storing any pressure. If I move the height lever to high immediately after shutting off the engine, the rear of the car will rise a bit. If I wait for 30 seconds or so after shutting off the engine before doing it, nothing happens. Same for sitting in the boot - car will sag and then raise up if I do that right after shutting off, but if I wait for 30 seconds or more, nothing happens. This is with an accumulator sphere that comes off a car that only ticks every 45 seconds or so. Strangely, the TZD pump makes the 'whoosh' noise every 3-4 seconds, but I only hear the loud accumulator 'tick' every once in a while - it's hard to time as it seems to vary. Sometimes every 4 seconds, sometimes every 20 seconds, but the 'whoosh' sound is pretty much constant at 3-4 seconds. Tomorrow will pull the return lines and see which one if any is giving a constant return flow - I expect the steering always does, but is normal I believe.
cheers,
Roscoe
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Post by jeremy » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:51 am

Steering return flow is cut off when you turn whe wheel. This in turn operates the FDV which then provides and increased flow.

I think it likely your accumulator is leaking quite badly - hence the refusal to hold pressure. The height correctors will be shut with the car dropped and opened with it raised full. Its unlikely that they leak the same amount in all positions - so does this affect the ticking rate? 9remember with it high the suspension spheres function as accumulators and will slow the ticking if the main one is bad.

Jeremy

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Post by roscoe » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:05 am

I spent most of today working on it - changed thermostat, resealed valve cover yet again - noticed after a long drive it still seeps oil :x :x ; changed fuel filter and replaced fuel lines as I was still getting air in the system - that is fixed now. Pulled the fuel sender unit out of the tank as my gauge was inoperative - tested wiring from tank and both light and gauge worked, so figure it had to be the sender. Took the sender apart and found most of the printed circuit wiring was falling apart - fixed what I could but now instead of showing full empty, it shows full. So swapped it the one from my 16V parts car - without taking that one apart - now shows about 1/4 tank when I figure I have around 1/2 so will wait for a while and see what happens. Don't think those things are easy to repair - the conductor strips peel off the PCB material and I didn't want to try a soldering gun around something that was saturated with fuel.
Anyway, haven't had time to pull the return lines off, but agree it seems to be an accumulator/PR problem. With car on full low and full high, the ticking interval does change, but not dramatically - only 5 seconds or so. What seems strange is the 'psst' or whoosh sound - my 16v doesn't make any noise at all other than the PR tick every 45 -60 seconds or so, yet the TZD makes a very loud pssh sound every 3-4 seconds, regardless of the PR ticking - sometimes the PR valves click right after the pssh noise, other times I get a half dozen 'pssh' before the PR clicks and this is without changing anything in the car - no steering, brakes or suspension movements. I might try swapping the PR from the 16v parts car...but I hate to start disturbing the hydraulic lines...rust keeps them from leaking!!
cheers,
Roscoe
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2004 Peugeot 307
1990 Mitsubishi Express Van - Alpaca Transporter

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Post by sleepy0905 » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:55 am

Mine makes axactly the same sounds so i will be interested to know if you cure it I will keep an eye on this posting like you i have another PR and pump and have thought about changing them. :?
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roscoe
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Post by roscoe » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:59 pm

I'm going to get a piece of hose and use it like a stethoscope and see if I can find out where the 'pssh' noise is coming from - it sounds like the PR or near that area. If I can narrow it down, and compare to the 16V, it might give me a lead...I don't fancy swapping parts out for the heck of it...my TZD came from the Uk and all the fittings have the obligatory rust/seized method of leak prevention...unlike the Aussie-spec 16V that comes apart like a dream..
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Roscoe
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Post by sleepy0905 » Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:07 pm

my Pssh Whoosh noise seems to come from around the pump areaif that helps
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