Fast Ticking From PR

BX Tech talk
AlanS
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Post by AlanS » Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:19 pm

I've been sitting back with baited breath hoping upon hope someone would explain this as I thought it was just me that had this.
I've long held a theory on it that it is caused by one thing but affects another.
Tell me if anyone reckons this one stands up to scrutiny;
I feel that as they wear, the pump loses some of its efficiency. Now I don't think it's a case of panic.......quick go out and buy a new pump, but more a case of having to live with it. I have the opinion that what happens is that instead of pumping directly up to say (hypothetically) 60 bar but when it hits 45, the pressure at the accumulator, where it just goes click and drops out of the circuit as it should, that the pump begins to battle at around say 42 and progresses to 45 slower; in other words, whilst it still gets to pressure, it takes longer to get there so the p/r gtends to get into "no mans land" whilst it waits for the tiring pump to hit the magic figure so the accumulator can cut out and then when it does, if a load is suddenly applied, it drops below the critical figure and has to battle there all over again.
I don't know how many here remember a post I did a couple of years ago on my 'farting CX'? It used to even make the noise over a prolonged period even when it was driving along the road, so loud it could be heard above the road noise and the engine. I changed to a known better pump, bled the system and cured it. I have a feeling, this is where the problem lies, but with the BX, I feel most of the pumps are to the same stage and being of a different design to a CX system, could tend to be a bit more susceptible to it.
My 2 bobs worth FWIW. Anybody want to disprove the theory?


Alan S
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ken newbold
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Post by ken newbold » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:32 pm

Sound good to me Alan. When I've bought secondhand pumps in the past I've usualy tried to find one from a 17D most of t hem don't have PAS so the pump hasn't done as much work.
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sleepy0905
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Post by sleepy0905 » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:53 pm

I like your theory and i like kens idea of a pump of a non PAS car i will have to have a look for a pump but in the mean time i will have to change my pump to the one i have and try it and let you know. :)
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Post by roscoe » Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:26 am

I pulled the 4 LHM return lines off the reservoir today and 1 and 3 had very little return flow, more a slow dripping than a flow. Line 4 (brake valve returen) only had a flow when the brake was pressed and released which I believe is normal. Line 2 (priority valve/pressure reg return) was flowing a bit, but not a lot - wasn't under pressure but more than a steady drip. Using a hose to try and find the noise didn't prove anything, seems to be coming from both the pump and PR - noise travels along the pressure feed from the pump. Guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet on this one and change the PR with the 16V and see if it makes any difference...at least on the TZD it's a piece of cake to get off...unlike the 16V..likely have to pull the intake manifold off to get to it.
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cauchoiskev
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Post by cauchoiskev » Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:09 pm

ken newbold wrote:When I've bought secondhand pumps in the past I've usualy tried to find one from a 17D most of t hem don't have PAS so the pump hasn't done as much work.
On this subject, a wee question...

It would be much easier to find a low-mileage non-PAS petrol engine HP pump. However, you would have to swap the pulley. Has anybody ever tried this ?

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ken newbold
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Post by ken newbold » Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:53 pm

Yes, without success :( they seem to be sweated on the shaft and don't want to come off.
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cauchoiskev
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Post by cauchoiskev » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:00 pm

I suppose you tried heat, Ken ?

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sleepy0905
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Post by sleepy0905 » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:38 pm

I have also tried with an old pump i had i tried a puller and so much heat i eventually had the pulley glowing cherry red but it still would not shift in the end i gave up. :D
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Post by jeremy » Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:58 pm

Is there really likely to be any difference between a PAS and non-PAS pump as they've gone round the same number of times after all.

General experience is that pump pulleys can't be removed. All BX diesel pumps are the same.


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ken newbold
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Post by ken newbold » Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:07 pm

Jeremy, yes the pumps are the same but as you know the PAS system uses a huge amont of fluid so the pump has worked more and in my experiance I've not come across a bad pump from a 17 diesel.
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cauchoiskev
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Post by cauchoiskev » Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:28 pm

I used to think like Jeremy, i.e. pump ageing = number of revolutions, however, you can quite clearly hear the difference when the pump is under load. Also, outwith the load (PAS) question, petrol engine pumps generally have done less miles than diesel ones...

Unfortunately, this is all totally academic if the pulley can't be changed.

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Post by roscoe » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:35 am

We had a tech day here for the Cit club and I took the rear spheres and accumulator sphere from the TZD as well as the ones from my other 16V 'parts' car to be regassed (along with the ones on my 16V I drove there). The rears off the TZD were at 15 bar, the accumulator off it at 50 and the ones off the parts car all at 15 or so. I had the TZD rears regassed and used the accumulator sphere from the 16V - regassed to 62 bar. Came home tonight and fitted them to the TZD gave the ball bearing a 'smart tap' as well to be sure), started it up, did Citarobics a few times and what a difference. Ticking interval on high is now 30-35 seconds, on normal height is between 25-30 seconds and the pssst noise is much quieter. So it seems the other accumulator sphere even though it tested 50 bar today as well, wasn't doing it's job on the TZD, and combined with the low rears was affecting the regulator. With the engine off and on normal height, I can put the height lever on high and the car raises up as well now, something it wouldn't do before. As an aside, my daily driver 16V was dropping its bum after 5 minutes or so of shutting down, with the regassed accumulator and rears, it now stays up for over an hour - and still counting.
So I'm happy with the hydraulics on the TZD - need to pull and clean the rad. and that's it - time to start on the 'parts' 16V...overhauling an engine is such fun!
cheers,
Roscoe
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Post by AlanS » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:17 pm

start on the 'parts' 16V...overhauling an engine is such fun!
It is on one of them!! :twisted: All I can say, having 'been there & done that' is to just remember that there are no and I mean NO shortcuts.
Everything needs to be done thoroughly, checked before refitting and if in 1% of doubt, do it again or it will bite you on the bum.
Be 100% sure all oil galleys are cleaned out thoroughly and have lots of plastic containers to put things in (particularly the hydraulics off the tappets) so they go back in the same place they come from.
Done properly they are a really sweet running engine, but as I say, I'll betcha, you take one shortcut or take something as OK without checking it and it'll getcha. :twisted:

Good to hear that annoying ticking has gone.


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Post by roscoe » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:25 pm

Thanks for the advice Alan. I need to get the sump off and welded up first thing so it's not leaking, then will look at pulling the engine. I'm in no rush to get it going, so will take my time and do it properly as you rightly advise. I'll keep you posted on progress (or lack of it as case may be!).

Would it be advisable to have the block and head 'hot tanked' at an engine place to make sure they are clean internally - in my younger, drag racing engine building days in Canada I used to do that to my race engines to make sure they were spotless inside as well - assume we can get that done here as well?
cheers,
Roscoe
1991 TZD
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1990 Mitsubishi Express Van - Alpaca Transporter

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Post by AlanS » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:57 pm

Brad had his done at an engine rebuiler/modifiers place who had all the professional expensive gear. (This one spent $110,000 on an engine dyno recently) and these guys get engines sent up from down south off racing cars to be worked on so I'd reckon it's got to be as good as you'd get, and eventually, they drilled the ends of some of the oil galleys out, flushed them through and then plugged them before they could get them clean enough. The car had been run for a while on 20W50 mineral and that was the end result.
Welding should sort yours out in the sump, but if you've got any thoughts on doing any real hard driving, PeterT off aussiefrogs has baffled sumps I think you'll find.
When you get into it and have to do things like burping hydraulic tappets, I can send you my phone number if it's any help.


Alan S
By the time you're old enough to know it all, you can't remember why you were learning.