BX Gearbox swap: 1.7td gearbox onto 1.9d engine

ladonamobile · Post by **ladonamobile** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:30 am

Hi all,
I have been struggling with this gearbox, managing not to crush myself so far (only just).
The new gearbox has a different release mechanism but I hope a new clutch cable will mate ok with it.
I had it pulled up to within an inch messing for three hours then noticed a blanking rubber on crankcase had no where to seat into the gearbox housing. All off again, remove blank then all on again, but it still won't pull right up, half inch short and I am concerned for the alloy threads in gearbox case at bottom. I am pulling up as square as I can but I suspect the torque I am having to use is way more than necessary. I have checked the release lever is not pulled on.

Any other ideas please?

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:51 pm

Your clutch may not be centralized properly, if you've fitted a new one. If you haven't disturbed the clutch try turning the flywheel using a big screwdriver or something, as it turns the splines usually line up and go in.

I'm assuming you're doing this with the o/s driveshaft out?

ladonamobile · Post by **ladonamobile** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:02 am

Thanks for that. I have not moved the clutch, it was quite new.

Yes both drive shafts are out, I will try loosen it all off and move the flywheel as you suggest.

Windy Miller · Post by **Windy Miller** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:37 pm

Just a thought, but is the nose of the turbo gearbox input shaft a larger diameter than on the n/a gearbox (I've encountered this problem on Fords before). If that is the case you may need a different bearing in the end of the crankshaft.

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:46 pm

Not as far as I'm aware, I've done the change myself without problem.

I assume this TD gearbox is from a BX? not X@nt1@

CitroXim · Post by **CitroXim** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:04 pm

Ken, no, not a Xantia, they never had the 1.7TD.

Putting a gearbox back on can be a right old fight. They either go on relatively easily or they fight to the bitter death.

The secret is to get the gearbox dead square with the engine and then wiggle and push hard until it pops home. Doing it single-handed is bloody difficult, if not nearly impossible. Enslist help and have one person lying underneath supporting from below whilst another leans over the wing, cradles the gearbox, wiggles and pushes. A fair few well-chosen expletives, preferably in French, seem to help enormously

You said something about the release mechanism being different. Some TD 'boxes had the dreaded "pull" type clutch. If you're trying to use the "pull" release fork in the bellhousing with a normal push-type release bearing set-up, this may well be your difficulty. The release bearing may well be contacting the diaphragm spring hard before the 'box is fully home. I would transfer over the complete release setup from the old to the new gearbox. Replace the white nylon release arm bushes at the same time - they make one heck of a difference to the feel of the clutch and cost pennies from a Stealer.

Check the driven plate aliignment carefully as a lot of faffing about can move it, especially if the release mechanish is wrong and sufficient pressure has been put on the diaphragm to partially release the clutch. In my experience the blue plastic tool that comes with a clutch kit is not good enough for the job. You really need the pukka metal alignment tool for the job.

If, despite all, the damm thing still won't go home, take the driven plate out and gently chamfer the leading edges of the splines with a small triangular file to give the first-miotion shaft a bit of a lead-in.

Make sure the splines on the first-motion shaft are spotlessly clean.

ladonamobile · Post by **ladonamobile** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:06 pm

Thanks for all this info.

I pulled it off (again) this time needing a crowbar, to discover the thrust bearing not properly on the shaft.
One of the plastic tags on the bearing had broken so I think maybe the suggestion of mismatching release mechanism and clutch is correct.
I can't switch the release mechanism from the old bell housing because it has already gone to China via scrap baler.
What is the answer to this? Buy a clutch kit? Which do I match to, the engine details or the gearbox details.
Enquiries at one motor factor said the turbo clutches are 215mm while the 1.9d has 200mm. Another motor factor said they are the same at 200mm.
Given the gearbox and release mechanism dictate the distance along the shaft I suspect a clutch matching it would get all the dimensions back to norm. Providing, of course, that they are both 200mm.
Regards
Paul

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:04 pm

The turbo clutches are bigger than the N/A ones, so are the flywheels.

You should be able to buy an new release bearing on it own for about £12-15. It needs to be the bearing to match the clutch. Also when you attempt a refit, tie back the clutch release arm with string or wire to prevent to bearing becoming dislodged. Haynes covers this point very well.

ladonamobile · Post by **ladonamobile** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:02 pm

Why did I not do a thorough search of the list before setting out on this job?

jonkw covered this at http://www.bxclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic ... ght=clutch

TD clutches do not fit 17D/19D and vice versa, because they are not only bigger, but use a completely different release bearing and clutch cable arrangement. TD clutches on BX only interchange with the 16v models, due to clutch cable and gearbox type.

BX16/17/19 whether petrol or diesel, can all use the same clutch, basically Valeo 003501 which works for all. TD's and 16v both have a unique clutch, but, as they share key gearbox and clutch cable design, the 17TD clutch can be fitted to both in my experience.

Let's start again.....
Has anyone got a BX 1.9D gearbox for sale please?

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:31 pm

Yes that's right what John says, the clutches do not interchange, but the gearbox will, between 17td &19d anway.

All you need to do the change is the correct clutch cable for a TD and a new release bearing for 19d

ladonamobile · Post by **ladonamobile** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:09 am

Ahh, so I am still in the game with this box then.
I will make a visit to my local clutch specialist to see if they can get me the 1.9 thrust bearing, I will take some measurements of release arm to gearbox clutch spring and release arm to bell housing engine block to try suss out if the new bearing will meet the spring just right.
Then again I could just suck it and see. I will need a new bearing anyway.
Thanks again for all the help

Jaba · Post by **Jaba** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:28 am

Can I hijack this thread and ask an on topic question.

Can a petrol gearbox and clutch be converted to the TD/16v type.

My GTi has a stiff clutch. It is a newish one and has always seemed a bit stiff. The cable is a brand new one, recently and correctly fitted.

I have two TDs and their clutches are much lighter and smoother hence I am wondering if I can swap the TD pull type mechanism from a spare box into the GTi together with a new TD clutch as I would rather do this than fit a new GTi type clutch and gamble on it being better than it is at the moment.

DavidRutherford · Post by **DavidRutherford** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:54 am

Jaba wrote: the TD pull type mechanism

From my experience, I've never seen a 1.7TD engine with a pull type clutch. I was under the impression that these were only ever used on the 1.9TD engine. That's not only from the BX point of view, but from just about any PSA car I've ever seen.

If you have a stiff clutch and it's both a new unit and a new cable, then there is most likely some serious friction in a pivot somewhere. Prime consideration goes to the vertical shaft pivots in the bellhousing, but there's the possibility of a stiff pedal too.

Also, I find it is well worth gaffer-taping a cone to the end of any clutch cable (new or otherwise) and allowing some thick gear oil to run down in to it. That has absolutely transformed the action of the clutch on a couple of my vehicles.

Jaba · Post by **Jaba** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:53 am

DavidRutherford wrote: From my experience, I've never seen a 1.7TD engine with a pull type clutch

OK what I mean by pull type is not the GTi type of mechanism using that short push rod onto a lever/plate in the bellhousing that pivots in one place.
The TDs and I presume the 16vs have the long transverse vertical pivot, supported at both ends by the bellhousing, that is pulled by the cable. On my cars these are a lot lighter.
Good idea about the oiled clutch cable.

DavidRutherford · Post by **DavidRutherford** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:43 am

Jaba wrote:what I mean by pull type is not the GTi type of mechanism using that short push rod onto a lever/plate in the bellhousing that pivots in one place.
The TDs and I presume the 16vs have the long transverse vertical pivot, supported at both ends by the bellhousing, that is pulled by the cable. On my cars these are a lot lighter.

Ahhhhhhhhh, yes. I understand.

I've always referred to these as the ball-pivot-type and the shaft-pivot-type, and I now completely understand what you mean!

I have to say, I was under the impression that the 1.9D models used the shaft-pivot-type clutch release too. I've never worked on a 1.9D BX, but certainly a 1.9D 405 and a 1.9D 309 use the shaft-pivot-type release mechanism.

From memory, what usually happens with the ball-pivot-type mechanism is that the ball in the bellhousing wears its way through the release arm, thus wrecking the arm. At this point the arm will either collapse (bend) and be useless, or become very heavy indeed (siezed)

I believe (although I stand to be corrected on this one) that as long as you use the correct offset release bearing for the release arm, then either gearbox will fit. I think the OP may be trying to use a ball-pivot-type release bearing with a shaft-pivot-type bellhousing, and if the shaft-pivot-type bearing is smaller (thinner) then this won't work.

I'd persevere with the shaft-pivot-type release mechanism if you can, as I believe it's somewhat superior.