TZD Clutch Issues

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Ian_Fearn
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TZD Clutch Issues

Post by Ian_Fearn » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:09 pm

Since changing the clutch on the TD a couple of months ago i've been continually trying different adjustment setting with the clutch cable with seemingly no luck.

The problem is a severe juddering, not slipping when pulling away. Its much worse when cold.

I've adjusted it from the point where it wont engage at all to the point its at right now where the clutch pedal sits very high and the biting point is so close to the top of the pedal travel it makes pulling away smoothly very hard.

At the current setting the juddering is much less pronounced.

An ex-mechanic mate of mine drove it today and said that if he didn't know better he'd say the springs in the driven plate were knackered.

The engine mountings seem fine and the problem wasnt there before changing the clutch.

Any ideas?
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mountainmanUK

Post by mountainmanUK » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:13 pm

I know it might seem a stupid suggestion, but are you sure you put the driven plate in the right way round?

Just a thought! :wink:

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Post by Ian_Fearn » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:21 pm

Yes, it is!! Will it even fit the wrong way round?
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Post by mountainmanUK » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:29 pm

In my youth (about 14 yrs ago!) I managed to fit my first ever BX clutch, in a 14, the wrong way round! It responded in exactly the way you mentioned, with a massive juddering, and difficulty in engaging any gears.
When I refitted it correctly (another 2 hours later GRRR!) it behaved as it should!

I s'pose it IS possible to have a new plate with knackered springs.....but I doubt that if you bought a "reputably sourced" clutch, it would be that way!

Might be worth checking the cable ends for correct location. (Did you fit a new cable at the same time?)

No doubt some more 'clued-up' members will have further, better, ideas!

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Post by Ian_Fearn » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:51 pm

Just to confirm, it had a new cable and the gears select as well as any good BX at the current high clutch pedal position.
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Post by ken newbold » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:05 pm

No it doesn't fit the wrong way round.

If it didn't judder before, I reckon there's just two causes.

1, Like you're mate says, dodgy clutch. Or

2, When you were changing the clutch, did you at any time allow the weight of the gearbox to hang unsupported on the input shaft? I've seen one bent before, not much but just enough, this caused the clutch to fail again within 1 year of being fitted and like you say, juddered a lot, seemed worse when cold.

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Post by Ian_Fearn » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:16 pm

I kept support on the box at all times when removing and installing with a trolley jack and my arms so i 'doubt' the input shaft is bent.

If it was I wouldnt expect the problem to be lessened by tightening the clutch cable up more, would you?
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Post by Ian_Fearn » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:17 pm

Its a Valeo clutch from AEP direct who've supplied me with all sorts over the last couple of years.
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Post by toddao » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:12 pm

Judder in a new unit can be caused by a mis-aligned clutch I believe ( was it properly centred?), by oil contamination ( state of input shaft seals?) or even over-greasing of components when fitting a new clutch.
The cold problems seem to relate to condensation on the linings which disappears when warmed up!
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Post by CaM » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:29 pm

DID YOU MACHINE THE FLYWHEEL?

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Post by Geoffrey Gould » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:32 pm

Hello , one thing that comes to mind is the actual clutch lining is glazed, this seems to be much more of a problem now with non asbestos linings and as a guess it has got more pronounced as it has bedded in. One thing to try ( very much up to you.) is to try taking off, from standing stationary, in 4th gear and slipping the clutch until it is hot, smelly!! If this cures it then glazing is more than likely to be the problem.
Unless it's contaminated with oil or antifreeze.
One last thing is what was the surface of the flywheel like?
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Post by DavidRutherford » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:41 pm

CaM wrote:DID YOU MACHINE THE FLYWHEEL?
You don't need to SHOUT!

TBH I don't see the relevance of this. It didn't judder before, so it shouldn't with a new clutch in.

Clutch judder is an odd thing. TBH I don't think any form of oil or water contamination is likely to have much of an effect. It's most likely due to a not-quite-perfectly-flat friction plate, and a doesn't-quite-come-together-parallel pressure plate. As you "slip" the clutch, the slightly-closer-together bit of the pressure plate / flywheel arrangement catches on the slightly-thicker bit of the pressure plate, and hence causes judder. As the clutch wears, the effect will become less. Doesn't help you right now though obviously.
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Post by jeremy » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:47 pm

Whose cable did you use?

Many years ago I bought a Renault 21 - and the clutch cable was worn which made it a bit jerky. I splashed out on a Quinton Hazell one - which looked very superior with lumps of rubber and other things all over the place - and fitted it. Over the next month things got so bad I could barely change gear and of all things it broke the nylon self adjusting cam in the pedal - so it was off to the Renault dealer fro a genuine cable and new pedal.

Does everything feel free or does the pedal feel heavier going down than returning? If it does its a sure sign of a siezed cable.

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Post by CaM » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:57 pm

DavidRutherford wrote:
CaM wrote:DID YOU MACHINE THE FLYWHEEL?
You don't need to SHOUT!

TBH I don't see the relevance of this. It didn't judder before, so it shouldn't with a new clutch in.

Clutch judder is an odd thing. TBH I don't think any form of oil or water contamination is likely to have much of an effect. It's most likely due to a not-quite-perfectly-flat friction plate, and a doesn't-quite-come-together-parallel pressure plate. As you "slip" the clutch, the slightly-closer-together bit of the pressure plate / flywheel arrangement catches on the slightly-thicker bit of the pressure plate, and hence causes judder. As the clutch wears, the effect will become less. Doesn't help you right now though obviously.
If you don't reface the flywheel it may not contact the disc correctly.
also glazing, potential high spots, and the fact that the clutch has only a smooth surface on that side to 'bite' into while it beds in are a hugh cause of judder.
Here at work if we get a 'faulty clutch' claim, if they haven't refaced the flywheel and it judders, then 99 times out of 100 it'll be fine with a quick skim.
otherwise such things as engine mounts (should have juddered with old clutch) or a damaged or faulty driven plate will be a culprit
I've not heard of damper springs causing judder before. they're more to flatten out backlash noise and vibrations rather than soften the drive force.

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Post by DavidRutherford » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:22 am

CaM wrote:If you don't reface the flywheel it may not contact the disc correctly.
Not trying to be argumentative, but that's just not correct. Hundreds of clutches are changed every day by garages that don't have the facility to re-face a flywheel. I've yet to know of any clutch outfit or indeed any garage to even consider re-facing a flywheel.

I've changed at least 30 clutches myself, and never re-faced a flywheel. If it didn't judder beforehand, the only thing that can be at fault is the replacement clutch itself, or some damage done (e.g. input shaft, as mentioned above) while fitting it.

Most likely your "quick skim" fix for a juddery clutch means that the flywheel is then slightly abrasive (no longer a polished surface) and so it wears any high spots off the clutch friction disc. Same theory as mentioned by Geoffrey above.
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