Mi16V

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tim leech

Mi16V

Post by tim leech » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:40 pm

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PEUGEOT-CITROEN-M ... dZViewItem

Another poor BX that got killed off early.

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Post by tom » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:48 pm

I didn't think the 16V was a poor BX :?
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Post by adamskibx » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:48 pm

Its a shame that as it sounds like it was a good BX that it came out of. How can someone drive a BX16V as a runnaround and then go and destroy it to make some stupid little shopping trolley go faster than it or itrs driver can cope with. I have to admit, they're fun cars, but I just find this issue annoying. Why dont they just buy a Renault 5 GT Turbo. Its as quick as an Mi16 205 and far more composed round the corners.

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Post by tom » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:00 pm

What is so holy about the 16V anyway? There are more around than anybody wants. If that was not the case, they wouldn't get cut up.
Peugeots are simpler, cheaper to mend and more plentiful. They are also a darn sight better constructed than any BX which is generally reviled by all but us. Let them have their fun. We'll have the driveshafts, calipers, alloys, ABS, leather and aircon out of them for peanuts and save ourselves the bother of owning and restoring such a rarity. Sure it is fast but If you need to save them all for their engines, I'd have to ask what is wrong with the engine in the first place? All kinds of old BXs get baggy and are scrapped. At least the 16Vs get recycled. Look at the people on here with leather, alloys and 16V brakes.
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Post by Philip Chidlow » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:51 pm

I tend to agree Tom. I find myself asking why we get so uppity (as a group) about 16v BX's being broken for their engine? After all it's not like the BX is rare (yet) and there are still a fair few (enthusiast or not maintained) 16v's around - and which come up for sale. When we still collectively have the chance to buy a BX 16v (on eBay or whatever) and don't buy it, who are we to complain?

Let's get real. The BX is a lovely car. It does what is asked of it and doesn't ask for much in return. For a car of it's vintage it makes very good sense. I love the way you can walk along a street of parked cars thinking 'which of these would I replace my BX with?' - and come up with nothing! BUT it's not uniquely brilliant. It is not a Nirvana for car buffs generally... So let's live and let live (and those that vehemently disagree - let them buy up every sorry 16v that comes up! :lol: ).
• COMING SOON... 1992 Citroen BX TZD Turbo Hurricane
• COMING SOON... 1998 Citroen Xantia 2.0 16v auto Exclusive
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Post by jeremy » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:09 pm

There's something in what Tom and Philip are saying.

Strangely raiding 16 valves for their engines may actually ensure their survival. As Tom points out supply considerably exceeds demand at the moment - and so - eventually demand will equal and eventually exceed supply - which means that the price will rise - and then those who have got them have some incentive to look after them.

The performance of the 205 with the 16 valve engine is supposed to be extreme - with the added attraction that it looks like an ordinary 205GTi - sounds like cheap way of having fun!

There was of course the rally 205's with hydropneumatic suspension - so that the suspension could quickly be modified between stages by changing the spheres!

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Post by cavmad » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:21 pm

My take on this is that supply probably does exceed demand BUT...that may be down to what virtually every car goes through at some stage in it`s life: a slump in prices and a sort of place `twixt banger and classic (exactly where all other BX`s are at the moment). That doesn`t mean that it`s not a shame these cars are being broken for their engines and I can`t see how on earth stripping them for their engines will help them (16V models) survive?
I believe that their are enough `performance` cars out there cheap enough to prevent people 16V`ing their 205s, what with all the work plus the extra insurance to me at least it seems a strange choice.
Yeah these things happen, but if people are willing to put their money where their mouth and save them (or at least try to) then let`s not knock them for it please.

As a slight aside maybe we should ease off slating other people`s cars (and I have been guilty of this myself) as it seems to cause some unrest/bad feelings. When someone as genuine and pleasant as Mulley takes umbrage maybe we should ask ourselves if our thoughts are best left as just that-thoughts.
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Post by capri » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:06 pm

My issue with the Puggers is that they're taking more of them off the road, so when the day comes I can actually afford to run a Valver in addition to the Capri there will be fewer left for me to choose from. :(

I dunno, I agree with the sentiment that the BX 16v is not the be-all-and-end-all of motoring but I can't help but feel that it is a pretty special car - far more special than a Peugeot 205, and as such it deserves to be saved far more than to be harvested for its parts.
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Post by BX Bandit » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:40 am

Compared with all the cars available in the world, I would agree that the BX 16v isn't amazingly special..... But, this is an enthusiasts club, we are in Bx World, we're on the BX Club...we, collectively like the BX...

I like the cars and don't want them to be scrapped, to me it's not really a question of financials or demand vs supply, it's just a shame to have another one bite the dust.

My TD has been a real workhorse over the last 10 years, but under the ownership of 'average Joe' the car would of been scrapped and replaced with something newer. But I love my TD...so from a personal perspective, to have it scrapped would not be a particularly pleasant experience.

Looking at the wider picture though, I assume that we all share an affinity with the BX otherwise this site would serve no purpose..?? So, in BX circles the 16v is special and that's why it is a shame to see another one go....just MHO
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Post by tim leech » Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:36 am

Tom, Phil, the reason why theres so much resentment for the 16v being pillaged for its engine is the way it is done, aswell as knackered cars good clean useable examples are being bought up for that purpose, which would otherwise hopefully find a enthusiastic owner in this or the bx16v club.

I am a realist and know to most people the BX is just another crap old car from the 80s but at this rate there wont be many decent 16vs left along with. As for saying theres too many of them around when was the last time you saw one being used? maybe to some people who would only run diesels its of no matter but to myself a BX enthusiats of all types is it. At the time of its launch it was the voted best medium sized performance car in its class ( i have the old magazines)

Ontop of the rusty inner wings and bootfloors threatening there existence they have the added problem of the the egine and box being worth more than the car itself to some.

The build quality on a 205 is pretty rubbish to be honest, I have friends have onwed them, as were most french cars of the 80s, the bx included, it does seem a real shame that maybe one day the 16v will be near on extinct just so some enthusiasts can have a few more bhp and bonus points at club meetings.

Ive had a smimilar problem with my other love my Sd1, the V8 being prime kitcar, hotrod fodder aswell as the terminal rust if not cared for, hence now why there down to less than 1000 examples of over 330000 made!

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Post by Philip Chidlow » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:42 am

Don't get me wrong - I am a huge fan of the BX in all its forms. I find it hard to resent Pug owners whipping out the engines from cars that have clearly had their day, but I do echo Tim's sentiments that to cull a perfectly good BX 16v for a 205 is infuriating.

But these cars are often offered to all - and it is a sad fact that us BX owners simply cannot afford the money or time to rescue every example, so realistically a few are going to be sacrificed along the way (probably for the benefit of those BXs already being cared for as it turns out).

If a particularly nice 16v can't find a home with lovers of the BX, the owner still has the right to sell to anyone that can make use of at least part of it. Still doesn't make it any more palatable though :x
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Post by Mike P » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:12 pm

At the last count / guestimate there are less than 1000 Bx16v's left now in the country and IIRC we took a fair majority of the world supply.

As Tim has already stated, we are an enthusiasts club and the manner in which these cars are gutted has been flaunted in our faces on numerous occasions.

The quantity of potential owners is severly limited for these cars and sadly there is more interest in the engines than the complete cars. Living in the real world, I have a Bx16v in the garage at home and another 2 in storage as projects or for friends to drive around but we can't save them all as they come up for sale.

The inverse of the supply and demand stated is that there is a quantity of second hand parts, but how many decent complete shells have been scrapped with nothing taken off by any Bx owner? It will end up costing the 16v owner more in the long run as Citroen reduce the stock levels of parts due to not many people buying them.

The problem with the 205 conversion is that it makes a very very quick car, speaking as somebody who has done 2 with friends, shame on me :oops: Follow this scenario: I want a track day car. Do I spend £5k on an Elise or >£1.5k (£400 16v engine converting a £800 205) to make a car that can compete :?: Not really rocket science is it :?:

Another cause for the falling numbers is the amount of 205 owners that have ripped cars apart thinking they can undertake the conversion and then found that their mate Dave can't install it back with a £10 Halfauds socket set and gas axe that he ripped the Bx apart with. I would estimate that a lot of Bx16vs have met this fate.

At least I've got a nice one in the garage that you would have to offer in excess of £1500 to take away :D

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Post by Philip Chidlow » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:00 pm

I should put my money where my mouth is this year and get me a 16v, I guess. :roll:
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Post by Kitch » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:37 pm

Interesting thread, I usually get my oar in on these so here goes.

Basically, the BX 16v wasn't a popular car when it was launched, let alone now. Many don't know what they are and there are many uneducated types who seem to think the engine is the same as a 306 GTi-6, or a ZX 16v or a 306 S16 etc.......how many ads do you see on ebay regarding the XU9J4 or one of its descendants with false information? If people who own the cars get the info wrong when selling them, what chance do the rest of the population have of learning to ways of this car?

Fact is because it wasn't popular then, and is still unknown/not popular now, they're worth relatively little. Its rare for one to fetch £1k these days BUT....perhaps 4x4 aside what other BX will fetch that in the mintest of mintiest conditions? None! So as a BX, its expensive. This rules out many of the enthusiasts, as lets be honest here...one of the attractions of the BX to them is how much you get for your money!
But to Joe public, £1k for a car that we all cry is special is relatively little, compared to Escort RST's that are in A1 condition for example. So they don't quite hear our pleas with their materialistic ears.

Now with 205er's, half of them fall under that latter catagory. They know the 205 GTi is a cool cult car, and they know an Mi16 engine in one of these cars makes it stupidly quick. Lets not beat about the bush, I have every faith one of these would cut the mustard with just about modern hot hatch up to about 250bhp.
Then they find out the conversion can cost very little, as all they have to do is find one of these unwanted Citroens and hey presto....pretty much everything they need in one package. Do they care if it is a low milage car, coming from a good home with FSH? No, of course not. In fairness, why should they?
The other half of 205er's do have alot of knowledge, and know what the BX 16v is. However they also know its worth dick all and that they like fast 205's more.

So either way the BX is doomed. You've got 10,000 lads with 205's who want to to sub 14.5 second quarter miles and 100 bloeks of mixed ages who rant that this softly sprung, unwanted, plastic nosed, LHM leaking Citroen that is worth nowt is the car they should be using?

Yeah.....right! :lol:

In response to the threads above, I actually mainly agree with Tom and Phil mostly, although Tom.....205 built better?? :shock: Thats either a shonky BX you're comparing or a professionally rebuilt 205!
But fact is that these cars won't be worth anymore until they become very rare. Then, when they're rare there will be a scramble by enthusiasts to snap them up and the values will rise.

The sad case is, its the enthusiasts (us) who suffer. We see our beloved BX's being needlessly butchered now, and then in the future the bits will be rarer (as the spares that aren't needed aren't efficiently recycled our way most of the time!) and therefore more expensive, as will the cars themselves.
So we lose out all ways, but to reiterate my point above, we're the minority. We can either sit around and cry about it, or build bridges with the 205 clan and find a way of getting the bits they'd just bin in our own garages.

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Post by Mike E (uk) » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:56 pm

Cav mad said:

"I believe that there are enough `performance` cars out there cheap enough to prevent people 16V`ing their 205s, what with all the work plus the extra insurance to me at least it seems a strange choice. "

I would have thaught there were too, and many will be superior cars.

Some motors will go into track day cars, but I expect most don't.

But how many converted 205s are actually insured as such?
With the 1.6 badge, an 18 year old can 'insure' it for far less than a factory produced alternative.
I expect a 205 Mi16 would be almost uninsurable for anyone under 30, which is most of the likely owners.

I agree it is not practical to do anything about it, but it was the 'flagship' BX, so I think it rational that we dont like to see good examples being wasted.

Mike