That little red BX14E... Does it need lead additive?

[RxBX]

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From what I can recall the BX14 pre 1988 could not use anything but leaded or LRP fuel. The later models could! James what year is your BX14? I still have by unleaded guides somewhere

You've obviously not picked up on THIS thread which is the vehicle in question (1984)

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[KevR]

Dead right about the 10% additives including ethanol.

E10 can be up to 10% pure Ethanol, on TOP of any other additives. Until recently we had E5 (up to 5% Ethanol) and most older cars can cope with that without too much problem - very old fuel pipes can degrade quickly but anything that old wants changing anyway. The 10% concentration is a different kettle of halibut altogether – already causing problems with plastic tanks on a lot of motorbikes (even recent ones where manufacturers ought to have known better), and as you say, death to a lot of older carb and fuel pump components.
Most fuel companies don't actually want to add Ethanol to their fuels - they have to buy it in, it's relatively expensive and it's also causing them problems with fuel storage and pumping as it's attacking older installations. But they have no choice - the legislation and tax structure's being ramped up to force them to use it. So far, they can mostly get away without putting it in their premium brands, so you can pretty much guarantee at the moment that, say, BP Ultimate or Shell V-Power has at most 5% and usually 0% ethanol (depends on which refinery/depot it's been loaded). The downside, of course, is the extra cost - a significant part of the extra price you pay is extra fuel duty for not using Ethanol.

[Dollywobbler]

Yup. It annoys me a LOT that ethanol is being forced into fuels. A back-door way to try and get 'old clunkers' off the road I reckon. The environmental benefits simply don't add up for me, as you end up using food to make fuel, so food gets more expensive, and the poorer folk of the world go hungry so people can drive around in cars. Oh, and more and more rainforest is destroyed to make more and more arable land. It would be better to incentivise manufacturers to make more fuel efficient cars and trucks, so fuel use goes down (which it has been over the past few years as it happens).

[B-Hive]

FWIW

I have never bothered to put a fuel additive in any of my pre-unleaded petrol BX's and have never had a related problem..

As mentioned, most, if not all of engines with an alloy head will have hardened valve stems.

As for ethanol.. my jury is still out..

In haste last night when the GT was required for a coast trip at short notice, I filled her with ethanol 10%.. and at any sign of a gradient she started to misfire more and more then cut out..a very short rest (say 30 seconds) and she's fire back to life.. and then be ok or falter again if continuing up hill..

It was like there was a temporary fuel starvation.. coincidence with the E10? another fault?

It presented with pretty much the same issue that I had ages ago when the ADR (australian design regulations) mod to the carb's fuel return went sour and I had to re-plumb the carb back to standard...

This post got me to thinking about how the ethanol may not only effect the carb but also may have a detrimental effect on the fuel pump diaphram.

Back to post... spoil your car always with the good fuel..don't worry about any additives assuming the suitcase has alloy head ..(very surprized if not)...

[KevR]

I have the same misfire trouble with my H van n modern fuel, also with the 2CV, which was cured by fitting a larger pilot jet (must try that on the H van).

As for the wider picture, the other trouble is that the emissions-led tax structures have meant more catalytic converters which means more open cast mines in the 3rd world, meaning more pollution at source, and more really nasty heavy metals going into circulation, just to make cats for cars that will sit n traffic most of their lives, where cats don't make the slightest difference and may actually make stuff worse, and because they're so stifling to the engine they mitigate against efficient use of the fuel you are using. Mental. It's perfectly possible to make relatively clean AND fuel-efficient engines, but the legislation actively discourages it.

[B-Hive]

I have the same misfire trouble with my H van n modern fuel, also with the 2CV, which was cured by fitting a larger pilot jet (must try that on the H van).

As for the wider picture, the other trouble is that the emissions-led tax structures have meant more catalytic converters which means more open cast mines in the 3rd world, meaning more pollution at source, and more really nasty heavy metals going into circulation, just to make cats for cars that will sit n traffic most of their lives, where cats don't make the slightest difference and may actually make stuff worse, and because they're so stifling to the engine they mitigate against efficient use of the fuel you are using. Mental. It's perfectly possible to make relatively clean AND fuel-efficient engines, but the legislation actively discourages it.

Not meaning to hijack the thread but the same environmental madness applies to air conditioning gas.. Here we have "moved on" from "bad" r12 to "safer" r13a..

Madness ...the chemical companies making this stuff must have the government in their back pockets..its been found to be way more inefficient than r12, much harder on the components of the system and noisier when compressor kicks in, PLUS if it does leak is actually more harmful to the environment...

I smell a conspiracy theory Scully...

[Tim Leech]

I think the quality of fuel as mentioned is important, I never use supermarket stuff, only Total or Shell.

[Kitch]

I think the qaulity of fuel as mentioned is important, I never use supermarket stuff, only Total or Shell.

One of the biggest myths around regarding fuel as far as I'm concerned.

[Tim Leech]

I think the qaulity of fuel as mentioned is important, I never use supermarket stuff, only Total or Shell.

One of the biggest myths around regarding fuel as far as I'm concerned.

Thought you may say that .... ive read plenty of reports saying otherwise (its the additives more than the fuel itself that make the difference) and as the local Shell garage is cheaper (by about 2p a litre) than the Tescos half a mile down the road and which reading around the net is seen to be one of the best for economy .

[Dollywobbler]

I'm with Kitch. I buy fuel when I need to buy fuel, though I do try to support our local BP station when I can, as rural stations are getting hard to find these days. I've never had a problem with supermarket fuel. All these fancy additives may make a difference to super modern cars, which can adjust the mixture to suit different blends, but the older cars we love will run happily on anything.

[Tinkley]

There was a lot of trouble in the US when ethanol was put in fuel for outboard and inboard marine engines. Many pipes rotted through and there were serious fires even deaths attributed to the fire, caused by a ruptured pipe, caused by the fuel etc etc. If you google it you will find more on it.

The whole CAT thing was a joke, a rather bad one as it turns out. Whether its true that its cheaper to get the rhodium from scraping up existing road surfaces than mining it, I do not know. However the metals to line the CAT with are not cheap or easily obtained. The Mitsubishi Galant 1.8 engine of about 1994 exceeded every EU emission reg easily except one - result - shove a CAT on it!. Even now if politicians were serious about economy there would be no compromise on engine efficiency (approx 5-10% loss by virtue of a CAT?) also absolutely no aircon (I hear the moans, but it does drain power) and perhaps slightly lighter power use than we are becoming used to.

Maybe a few of them (politicians) bought a bunch of shares in Johnson Matthey circa 1990..........

I'm with Tim on different fuels affecting the running of the car. My old 14RE definitely was better on the ESSO LRP than the others. Not so sure with the Athena, still it doesn't matter if I get a dose of that frothy Tesco stuff - the one that clogged all the Lamda sensors...

[MULLEY]

I've always bought the cheapest fuel that i can find, 90% of the time its supermarket stuff, not one jot of difference tbh between the lot of them & i've even tried high octane stuff as well, not even worth commenting on. I've tried additives, again not one iota of difference imho.

[kiwi]

There was a lot of trouble in the US when ethanol was put in fuel for outboard and inboard marine engines. Many pipes rotted through and there were serious fires even deaths attributed to the fire, caused by a ruptured pipe, caused by the fuel etc etc. If you google it you will find more on it.

When unleaded was fully rolled out in NZ in 1996 it was phased in diluting the leaded fuel in storage. Around about March 1996 suddenly there was a scare over the new fuel rotting fuel lines causing fires. Well to be honest lot of it was the result of rotten fuel lines anyways. My 1984 commodore leaked fuel due to rotten vapour return hoses prior to the introduction of the fuel, had I waited a couple of months could claimed the cost of replacement...lol

Ironically the Fire Service recorded the lowest number of vehicle fires because people started to panic over getting fuel lines checked and replaced.

[Thread Bear]

The oil companies are full of rubbish statements. 'Petrol is cheaper to produce than diesel', being one. No it is not. Diesel is a natural result of cracking reasonable crude. But in Britain it is not because the refineries a biased toward petrol production, so really the answer is yes it is, but only because our infrastructure makes it so. Why? 'Cos everyone makes more money out of it, that way.
Ethanol is pretty easy to make. Its also yeast piss. My heart bleeds for the dreadful expense of putting it in fuel. The fact is that is more disinformation as above. Its a tax hike as effectively its less calorific value per volume then petrol by reducing the amount of energy you buy. So the % reduction in energy per litre means your paying more tax on your fuel! What with that, % less imported feul and inflation the Chancellors is being ever so kind not putting up fuel duty. He has got his rise anyway. Again everyone wins except the poor old consumer, who picks up the bill for broken machinery with no comeback.

With diesel things are a bit simpler. It is a natural fuel so gets used for other things. So if your happy with el cheapo fuel in your car you would be running heavy heating oil at about 60p a litre. Unfortunately like raw veggie eventually the injector pump will give up as it needs something a bit more than that to lubricate it. Plus carboning etc etc. Supermarket fuel is lower grade than the oil company stands so the best deal is the first oil company stand next to the supermarket normally at a penny more. I found you get better MPG out of it and the car tends to be smoother. Choice is yours.

The XUD and chums are the last engines that can really run pretty much any old rubbish. Notice how modern sensors prevent the use of alternative fuels. Yet allegedly the Government promotes there use. These days you can have 2500 lt of veggie as fuel without a fandango outside the cash and carry - now there are no moderns to put it in. The fact is the Government is not interested in people going green unless it can charge for it. A look at trying to create a minimum to no utility bill house will show you quickly how the chips are stacked slowly against you in an attempt to drop out of consumer lifestyle as a huge amount of the moving wealth of the country has these aphids sucking at the supply of juices. Since the aphids make the rules up they ensure that they get there supply of juice and keep breeding as its such a good source of easy living. That makes me want to opt out even more.

This ethanol in petrol has motivated me to start clearing a lot of my classics as they are not going to cope long term. Others will struggle to run on it due to vaporisation. The ride on mower has gone in favour of a more basic Atco ride behind. Not sure about the Stihls, Combined with the DVLA ever moving towards the registration charging Gestapo that the Government crave and I think I am doing the right thing. Take not of that 1960 MOT free cut off date. I think that arbitrary date is going to become important. Of the cars I keep I have a few cunning plans for some others will be track day class machinery, so in a differing sort of usage. Fewer machines and more detail effectively. But brewing your own fuel does seem to be a coming possibility with all this crap being forced onto us by pressure groups. For that you need space, most folks have not got it so another wedge against 'normal' society and those who just want the freedom to be who they are.

[Tinkley]

Hi Kiwi, it's not unleaded per se that is the problem it is the ethanol - ie biofuels. Grow edible crops and convert them to petrol etc. Personally I favour biomass fuels such as wood burners, wood pellet and wood chip burning but not converting edible food crops to fuel for ic engines. There seem to be a lot of mouths to feed still.....
The valve seat materials are different for unleaded engines as the lead acted as a lubricant for valve seating. Both the valve and the seat are a different alloy. There was quite a bit of research to find good combinations. A lot of it pre empted by California whose government was keen to lower lead emmissions from the early 1970s'.
In fact the 'leaded' of circa 2k was approx 1/10th the ammount of 1990.

Out of interest a lower crime rate globally is credited to the drop in emmitted lead from vehicles. I admit I am a little sceptical on that, but open about it. Certainly lower levels cannot be a bad thing. Another weirdo for you - it takes 5,000 tangerine skins to make 1ltr of suitable fuel alcohol to run (very cleanly) an ic engine. Suzuki did quite a bit of work on that, the skins are waste product from de skinning the fruit. This type of thinking is a plus in my book and should be encouraged.