Tyres - a headache!

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citsncycles
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by citsncycles »

the 14 qith its 165's is pretty good despite its lack of torque.
You should try an early diesel with cheapo 165 M&S tyres if you thought the 14 was good - with that heavy engine to help force the wheels down and all that low down torque I could stick it in 1st and simply lift the clutch to pull out of a snowy car park while all the moderns were skating everywhere - even managed better than an (admittedly badly driven) Freelander!
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by Thread Bear »

That is the rub. You go and get yourself equipped in a car, know how to drive and the roads get blocked by idiots in 4x4 who do not know how to drive them with stupid posy great tyres on that are completely inappropriate for the conditions as they are to the vehicle at any time. If your really unlucky these are the twats that drive into your well preserved car and then act like its your fault.
I am tempted to go and by something big and ugly for the bad weather/towing jobs like a UMM. Cheap, easy to service and heavily made, plus I have a spare turbo engine in the shed. Much as I would like a Unimog I cannot really justify it. Better still a Tatra 815 and drive over the bastards, see youtube with these driving out of lakes etc. beast of a thing. Trouble is a tyre would cost as much as a BX.
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electrokid
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by electrokid »

After registering with Paypal you can apply to have your address verified by them and "verified address" becomes your status with Paypal. Using a verified address should be sufficient for any purpose - asking for an utility bill for proof of address for a simple transaction is IMHO complete nonsense.

I've used Tyremen - no problems...

http://www.tyremen.co.uk/?gclid=COzB3_T ... tAodHxoAug
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mat_fenwick
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by mat_fenwick »

Yup, my address has been verified with Paypal for many years - I've been using them since all their transactions were in dollars!

I'd also found Tyremen previously, but again they didn't do the Hankooks in my size. Also slightly more expensive (at the moment) compared with the same tyres on mytyre.co.uk, but the prices there seem to be all over the place! A month or so ago they were doing a 3% discount, which I just missed out on - only to find they became cheaper after the discount ended! £59 with a discount, then dropped to £56 with no discount, bought for £50.90 yesterday.

I got a good deal from them on my winter tyres for the Focus too - looks like buying snow tyres in the spring and summer tyres at the end of autumn is the way to go!
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by BX Bandit »

I just used pneus online and didnt have to verify my address - how strange. I think you can get them sent direct to your tyre fitter though.
I just bought me a pair of winter/snow tyres, currently on the rear but will be put on the front when it get cold enough. Those Kinergy tyres were my number two choice if I was going for Summer tyres, Vredestein Sportrac 5s been the first choice. These 'efficiency' labels are a god send really, there is so much subjectivity with tyres, even thinking a particular brand name is shit will predispose the driver to think the tyre is shit before they are even fitted!
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mat_fenwick
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by mat_fenwick »

BX Bandit wrote:These 'efficiency' labels are a god send really, there is so much subjectivity with tyres, even thinking a particular brand name is shit will predispose the driver to think the tyre is shit before they are even fitted!
Agreed! But looking at the ratings for the Kinergy 195s versus the 185s (I was wondering how much of a price difference there was) I noticed the wider tyres got a C rating for fuel economy; the narrower ones an E!
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by deltic »

citsncycles wrote:Wider tyres aren't necessarily an advantage anyway - they're great for grip when you can see the roads, or for spreading the weight of the vehicle on soft ground, but on snowy roads you want a tyre that'll cut through to the road, not skate about on top.
Which is why 2CVs etc. are so good in snow - in my Dyane I once got further than a Range Rover on one of the high snow covered roads between Weardale and Teesdale. For once I decided to turn around and not get stuck like the Range Rover.
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electrokid
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by electrokid »

Yup, my address has been verified with Paypal for many years
Can't think why they could possibly want other documents then :? If it had been me then it could have been postcode confusion - the Post Office generated the original data for the software that auto fills the address from a given postcode - except that they got mine wrong and some people haven't updated for 5 years - just have to fill in my address manually from time to time.
but again they didn't do the Hankooks in my size
You're supposed to put them on the car Mat :wink:
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by Caffiend »

Data Protection Principle 3: Personal data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they are processed.

If the payment has cleared and they have your address, they don't need anything else.
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mat_fenwick
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by mat_fenwick »

'Tis all very strange. Maybe the difficulty was that I was sending them to a different address than my billing address, but even so it seems a little restrictive limiting the documentation to those examples. Happily, tyres are on their way from elsewhere.

Looking at the ratings they should be even better than yours :P (albeit marginally) although for slightly more notes.
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

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2CVs etc. are so good in snow - in my Dyane I once got further than a Range Rover on one of the high snow covered roads between Weardale and Teesdale. For once I decided to turn around and not get stuck like the Range Rover.
Years ago I had a wedding to go to in Whitley Chapel (about 7 miles south of Hexham). The day after I got there it snowed, and me and my brother had a great day out on the moors with the mountain bikes (until I broke the gear hanger on the LTS - a common occurrence on GT's of the period). the following day it snowed again, in time for me to head for home - with an Ami 8 and my Wessex Craftsman caravan! The Ami was brilliant, although I was nervous going downhill in case the caravan decided to overtake me!

My Dyane has also been good in snow - when it's really bad it's worth having some friends in the car, so that if you do get stuck you can just take a corner each and lift it out :lol:
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by MULLEY »

This is an interesting article should you be relying on the new tyre rating systems for winter tyres, basically don't trust the ratings which makes the whole approach a load of cobblers imho :( Winter tyres are FTW :)

Recently I have been involved in a number of motoring forums and after reading various threads about winter tyres and the new labelling system I have been drawn to write this post. I have seen a number of comments about tyre labelling and particularly the poor wet braking results that winter tyres tend to show. For those not heavily involved with winter tyres these label results can be really confusing, it's not uncommon to see great quality winter tyres with wet braking results of E & F. Yet the tyre manufacturers and winter tyre retailers often try to promote the term 'cold weather tyres' and claim these products offer shorter braking distances in a range of winter conditions, not just snow & ice.

So how can a winter tyre with a wet braking result of F, offer shorter braking distances in the wet? Well to be quite frank it's because the tyre labelling system is a complete joke!

The testing process that tyres have to go through for their tyre labelling values is standardised, and with good reason. In order to have consistent results across brands this needs to be the case. However the testing across different types of tyre is also standardised, so summer tyres, all-season and winter tyres are all tested in the same way. This standardisation states that all tests should be carried out at 25 degrees Celsius! So a cold weather tyre that is designed to offer superior performance in colder conditions has to be tested in a temperature range outside of what it has been designed to perform at. The rubber polymers that make up a winter tyre are designed to 'work' (be that stay supple in the cold to offer short braking distances, superior grip…) at temperatures below 7 degrees, therefore the labelling results from a test at 25 degrees don't say anything at all about their actual cold weather credentials.

Winter tyre manufacturers will happily admit that their products won't perform quite as well as their summer counterparts in warmer conditions, because this is not what they are designed to do. If the tyre manufacturers were allowed to test their winter tyres in more suitable conditions (less than 7 degrees) then the results would be very different indeed. Tyre labels were designed to offer the consumer more information on the products they are looking to buy but for winter tyres they just increase confusion, well done the EU! To be honest I have issues with tyre labelling even for summer tyres, if you're interested you can see my rant here.

It's not just the wet braking result that I have an issue with though, lets take a look at the other criteria.

Fuel efficiency - this test looks at a tyres rolling resistance and aims to show how products compare in terms of how fuel efficient they are. Well winter tyres have 2 things that will not go in their favour, firstly they have sipes. Sipes are the little zig zag lines that run all over the tread blocks, these offer additional biting edges that allow the tyre to grip in snow, ice and slush. All winter tyres have these and they are incredibly important when it comes to winter traction. Also winter tyres have more aggressive tread designs; often they are directional and have unusually positioned tread blocks. Such designs again add to winter performance, yet both of these design features are not going to improve fuel efficiency. Hopefully you are considering winter tyres because you want to drive safely in the colder weather, well with tyres if you want to excel in certain criteria then there is always a compromise. In this case the compromise is partly on fuel efficiency. Finally it's worth mentioning that the difference between the best and worst performing tyres within the tyre labelling results equates to a full tank of fuel over the whole life of the tyre, in terms of the actual affect to mpg the difference is relatively minimal.

One of the other factors that have to suffer in order to perform in the snow is the final part of the tyre labelling criteria; noise. The very same features detailed above (siping & tread block design) will also generate a bit more noise than a summer tyre. You will have seen that most modern summer tyres have that very standard design with around 5 circumferential grooves, well this is the type of design that will be nice and quiet. Winter tyres are designed differently and unfortunately one of the by-products of this is (slightly) increased road noise.

It's frustrating that winter tyres have to be rated in the same way as a summer tyre as none of the things that they are designed to do can be seen from the tyre label. What would be useful for consumer to know is stuff like; how quickly the stop on snow, how quickly they stop in the wet in colder conditions, ability to grip on ice….. If this is not to be the case then surely it would be better to not make winter tyres have to display any data at all?

My worry is that a motorist is considering winter tyres for the first time and is then put off as they are led to believe that the product will not perform well in the wet. As we are well aware British winter can bring a lot of rain and in fact a winter tyre will offer increased safety when it's wet and cold, it's just not possible to get this message over with the current tyre labels.

As a retailer through our company Tyremen we legally have to display the label data to visitors to our store and website. It's just a shame that we then have to spend the time in educating the public to disregard this information all together. Maybe I could be bold and take the data down for all winter tyres? In the mean time I hope this post helps to show that all is not as it appears when it comes to winter tyres and tyre labeling.
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by Tinkley »

Interesting stuff, why is there not a test at C5° or similar for all the tyres? As you say it is only when the tyres are put through a range INCLUDING temperature that you will get meaningful figures.

Some parts of testing are actually impossible to quantify, such as whether a certain tyre actually works with a certain vehicle - Ford SUV and Bridgestones anyone?. That is where a skilled tester can put on an impartial hat and recommend good combinations. In reality most of us check these figures and then try and get a combination that works for us, on the car and the pocket. It is to the tyre manufacturers (and vehicle ones) credit that there are so relatively few really bad tyres or dangerous combinations.

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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by Thread Bear »

There is nothing stopping the tyre manufacturers creating there own data set by trade agreement :?: .

The problem is the answer is only any good if you know what the question was :!: . There is a skill in knowing what the right question to ask is.

The unfortunate state of things in the UK is we never know if we are to have a spell of weather that will demand the use of winter tyres. There has been a move to have people fit them for the winter period but really to use them properly you need a second set of rims and to change the wheels over if the weather demands it. The more extreme the tyre design the more you need to have winter tyres. Their is simply no excuse to be driving a wrongly shod proper 4 X 4 in winter, for instance, unless you cannot afford the kit. I thought there was a law about endangering other road users. Yet round here they are often in the first rank of cars to get stuck as they have inappropriate tyres fitted with an over confidant driver :x . I have had occasion to dodge passed these beached whales in my Messerschmitt which as actually really good in snow. Correct power range, narrow tyres and weight in the drive wheel. Trouble is I dare not go out as so many people are out of control in icy conditions :cry: .

Never tested a BX in really cold weather. The Pug 405, 1.9 turbo diesel, was difficult as just when you had the car balanced the turbo would want to come in and put to much power into the wheels. I had an occasion in Cricceth towing a caravan where I was forced to stop on a hill by a selfish guy coming the other way in an unseasonal snowstorm. I had a hell of a job to get going again but found going lock to lock was just enough to negate this lack of balanced power delivery and got up. I pulled over to let the resulting que of backed up traffic go passed :) . A police car appeared and I though 'What the flip does he want to nick me for' :( . He did not. He commended me on my driving 8) and said he was rather pleased as he had visions of sorting the mess out in the cold by waving his arms about. Being cheeky I asked him if he could find out if it was snowy at Rhiew near Abadaron, where we were going. If it were we would wait out as it might thaw. Turned out it was clear beyond Phewelli, a very localised snowstorm in 'summer'. Thats British (Welsh) weather for you! I would not have had my winter tyres on even if I had had any.
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electrokid
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Re: Tyres - a headache!

Post by electrokid »

Very interesting and informative post Matthew =D>
This standardisation states that all tests should be carried out at 25 degrees Celsius!
Is this the temperature that the tyre should be at during the test - or is it the starting (or ambient ? ) temperature. The thought behind the question is that during the test the tyre temperature will probably increase whether it's on a vehicle or on a test jig - if there's a significant increase in the tyre temperature above 25°C then that will make snow tyres look bad.
You will have seen that most modern summer tyres have that very standard design with around 5 circumferential grooves,


Yes - noticed that - good for directional control and noise reduction but potentially useless at much else and particularly braking in the wet.
one of the by-products of this is (slightly) increased road noise.
Of no concern at all for those of us who have the XUD engine :lol:
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