BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Anything about BXs
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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by Thread Bear »

Betamex v VHS etc etc. Lowest common denominator, cost v pr. Always buy quality if it is under-priced or under valued. Non nonsense Bentley Mulsanne is a damned fine buy now. Service a truck, you can keep one of these going. Eer, suspension? Hmm 7 BX equals....... No!
Miguel - 16 TRS Auto S, light blue, 43k miles - £450
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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by citsncycles »

Laura very awkwardly asked me the other day why if Citroen's suspension is so good all cars didn't use it?
The answer to this has changed over the years. Initially it would probably have been down to patents and manufacturing rights (if Citroen had any sense). Cost would also have been a factor, as would the ability of each manufacturer to produce components to such close tolerances. As time has gone on, suspension design has developed and consumer requirements have changed, steel sprung suspension has closed the gap to the point that the advantages of the latest version of the hydraulic suspension no longer justifies the cost of the complicated system it's become.
Mike Sims
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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by Thread Bear »

What happened to active ride suspension? Banging of drums, trumpets. Computers to aid your steering and cornering, bla bla, hype hype \:D/.

Nothing :cry:!

Along with useful things like de icing front screens these obvious boons to 'sophisticated' car technology never happen :(. But we got an extra cup holder in the boot :?. Most of this modern stuff is out of date before its even left the drawing office. Where is the innovation :-#? The BX and its chums is ahead of the game in several respects but 20 years old at least! If you must bung a modern engine and management system in and you would better the performance of many a nasty little cockroach econocar and probably the usable space in a Ford Fatarse people carrier with the Estate scratch... .
Miguel - 16 TRS Auto S, light blue, 43k miles - £450
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Egbert - 19 16v Gti, White, A/C & Leather, - Keeper
Walt - 17 TZD Turbo S, graphite, 70k miles, good op extras - Keeper
Scraper- 17 TZD Turbo E, blue, 208k miles - parts
Homer - 19 TXD E, Red, 189k miles - £250
Gary - 17 TZD Turbo E, 118k miles - in work

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by citsncycles »

The innovation is out there, just for the most part restricted to the types of vehicles most of us can't afford!

That's where Citroen always had the advantage - the DS in it's own way was to comfort in the way the E type Jag was to performance - the best you could get for the price. What was truly great was how Citroen managed to carry this down to the GS, BX etc. Unfortunately, like most industries (and economies for that matter) growth is king, mostly in profit, and if you can increase the profit margin of the next model then sod the technological development! Someone somewhere has calculated that citroen will gain more customers than they'll lose by dropping hydraulics, and that's all there is to it.
Mike Sims
BX 19RD Estate Mk1 - Timex!
BX 4X4 Estate - Oh god, I've done it again!
BX 17RD MK1 - it called to me!
BX14 TGE, - SOLD
XM Turbo SD,GS Club Estate,Visa 17D Leader,HY Pickup,Dyane Nomad,Dyane 6,2CV AZL,Falcon S,Trabant P50,3x Land Rovers (88" series 1,109" series 2a FFR,series 2a Marshall ambulance),DKW F7, Lambretta LD150 x 1.5,Mobylette SP93,Ural Cossack,Ural M63,CZ 250 Sport,Honda Varadero 125,lots of bicycles & tricycles including (but not only) Sunbeams,Higgins & Bates!

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by Thread Bear »

Pass on. Cannot cancel.
Last edited by Thread Bear on Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Miguel - 16 TRS Auto S, light blue, 43k miles - £450
Pluto - 14 E S, White, 105k Miles - in work
Egbert - 19 16v Gti, White, A/C & Leather, - Keeper
Walt - 17 TZD Turbo S, graphite, 70k miles, good op extras - Keeper
Scraper- 17 TZD Turbo E, blue, 208k miles - parts
Homer - 19 TXD E, Red, 189k miles - £250
Gary - 17 TZD Turbo E, 118k miles - in work

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by Thread Bear »

I would agree, but that is not progress. Neither do I want the sort of crap that passes for 'very fast touring cars' today. To be honest on those budgets I would learn to fly and buy something much more innovative for my money, neatly avoiding the clones marching to the beat of the drum on our roads. (Indeed it is still not out of the question!) So easily pleased, and so simply charged for it.


So back to a former comment Bentley Mulsanne. I have always fancied an Alvis TD21. Come next year, a few cars rotated out of the collection to net the increased 'value' from others now more interested than myself at the ;going rate' via market forces, and I can afford this luxury. I find I can buy two Bentley for one Alvis, which is in most ways an inferior car (never was the stand out package, though), with Bentley probably at its lowest price before a very slow drift up in value. The Bentley would be at least the same cost to run. Interestingly; forecasting costs, values and usage the Bentley kicks a Range Rover, of similar age, in the transfer box. On such economics are choices made.
What makes Mercedes Benz latest computer infested complication better value for money? The Bentley is a bargain, if fuel cost is not an issue. Top quality, bottom price. I would be a fool to buy the Merc which can only loose and cost 95% of its value and has nothing of innovative merit that is of real use to offer. I am not sure the Bentley has either, but its still a proper car, which can be home maintained.
I can repeat this calculation on several other cars in differing classes. So the manufacturers are puffing smoke in peoples eyes to mask the fact they are offering no cars that are really advanced, nor value for money, once you include the State bankruptcy tax and green debt of production to buy mediocrity secretly expected to be in the scrap yard in about 6 to 8 years. Its madness.
Miguel - 16 TRS Auto S, light blue, 43k miles - £450
Pluto - 14 E S, White, 105k Miles - in work
Egbert - 19 16v Gti, White, A/C & Leather, - Keeper
Walt - 17 TZD Turbo S, graphite, 70k miles, good op extras - Keeper
Scraper- 17 TZD Turbo E, blue, 208k miles - parts
Homer - 19 TXD E, Red, 189k miles - £250
Gary - 17 TZD Turbo E, 118k miles - in work

'87 Trooper, Borgwards, Saabs, MG ZB, Bellamy Trials, Fiat Jolly & Bianchina, Goggo Dart, Messerschmitt, Heinkel, Bubblecars

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by deltic »

deltic wrote:
Tim Leech wrote:If a Citroen has steel suspension then why buy one?
There are many good Citroen's with steel suspension, e.g. A-series. And it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't drop hydropneumatic suspension entirely as after all it's only available on top spec C5s. Laura very awkwardly asked me the other day why if Citroen's suspension is so good all cars didn't use it?
Rather coincidentally this petition appear on a Citroen Yahoo Group:


Petition against the ending of the PSA Citroën hydropneumatic system

Please sign! (Of course, being French there's no other languages in the petition. You'll figure it out. And don't forget to "Valider"!

http://www.mesopinions.com/petition/aut ... roen/11030" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


For those of you who do not speak the Language of Angels, here is a rough
translation:

Attention :
Mr. Denis Duchesne
Director PSA Excellence System

With the creation by Citroën of the DS of 1955 (the petition creator has
forgotten the 15CV H but his intentions are good so…), the hydropneumatic
system revolutionised comfort, grip, ride and vehicle safety . It was so
obviously a superior system from the outset, compared to all competing
cars' suspension systems. And with the addition of electronics, such as
the C6 , we achieved a quality never before seen in wheel/road surface communication.
And it is at this moment in history that the Directorate of PSA has
decided to end this wonderful invention that has made Citroën known
worldwide and given the company its legendary reputation!
How can you erase 60 years of original art creation, which made Citroën
"manufacturer of the century"?
At this point, can the demands of financial and stock requirements which
are manifestations of the perversity of the economy, supplant human
intelligence and genius? How can you make such an unacceptable decision to regress given that the marque has surpassed the competition with its spectacular innovations in road safety? (According to insurance statistics, Citroën is the marque least involved in accidents).
It would be a shame if the leaders of PSA were to forget that Citroën is
the only manufacturer who managed to give the various components of
vehicles (suspension, braking, steering, lighting, etc. ) intelligent cybernetic behaviour systems ..
And how dare you leave in disarray all owners of Citroën hydropneumatic
cars - from the DS 19 to the C6; cars which have marked the history of the
automobile by their avant-garde qualities?
What will current Citroën owners do when they need to replace their
current hydropneumatic vehicle, knowing that they no longer have the
choice of metal springs of (an anachronism
from the time of the ark)? This is a betrayal; an insult to the innovative
engineers and designers of this technology; and a denial of scientific
progress.
In addition, this decision is a strategic mistake, for, without this
hydropneumatic system, Citroën models will lose their specific character
and will just fall in line with their many
competitors, becoming no different from all the others!
Many customers will leave the brand out of spite. Why continue to buy
Citroën since nothing fundamental will distinguish this manufacturer any
longer!
Do not erase this long and distinguished intellectual and industrial
adventure of hydrotech and reconsider this absurd and desperate decision.
Personally take the time to study and objectively compare the qualities
(especially ride comfort and handling) that Citroën models offer ..
The hydropneumatic system must actually qualify for the best invention in
automotive history and the fruit of genius and passion should not
disappear!
Bernard Grand
MA Physical Sciences
Doctor of Philosophy
1991 BX GTi auto, grey, 137,000 miles (2015, 2017 & 2019 Citroen Classic Challenge veteran)
1991 BX GTi auto, grey, 85,000 miles
2006 C4 VTR+ 2.0 Coupé, silver, 73,000 miles

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by deltic »

citsncycles wrote:
Laura very awkwardly asked me the other day why if Citroen's suspension is so good all cars didn't use it?
The answer to this has changed over the years. Initially it would probably have been down to patents and manufacturing rights (if Citroen had any sense). Cost would also have been a factor, as would the ability of each manufacturer to produce components to such close tolerances. As time has gone on, suspension design has developed and consumer requirements have changed, steel sprung suspension has closed the gap to the point that the advantages of the latest version of the hydraulic suspension no longer justifies the cost of the complicated system it's become.
That's pretty much how I explained it to her. That said the current state of many roads makes hydraulic suspension more relevant!
1991 BX GTi auto, grey, 137,000 miles (2015, 2017 & 2019 Citroen Classic Challenge veteran)
1991 BX GTi auto, grey, 85,000 miles
2006 C4 VTR+ 2.0 Coupé, silver, 73,000 miles

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by Thread Bear »

Plodding Peugeot or innovative Citroen. Its not a new type of marriage, and in most, the light of imagination is eclipsed under the niggling of the Normalcy Police. We have to be like everyone else but look different, and better, at the same time. Idiocy in action, in itself; fashion no less. So erstwhile engineering based manufacturers produce ersatz products molded; neigh styled, in the modern idiom, to look cutting edge without the knife blade balance of innovation in action that can go wrong. See other stylistic thread on renewing successful classic imagery as a serious look to the future. To an accountant it all makes sense, as the most imaginative thing they do is forecast budgeting - which they normally get wildly wrong.

Will a petition make any difference? Well it says what I think pretty much so why not chance it. Thanks for including that.
Miguel - 16 TRS Auto S, light blue, 43k miles - £450
Pluto - 14 E S, White, 105k Miles - in work
Egbert - 19 16v Gti, White, A/C & Leather, - Keeper
Walt - 17 TZD Turbo S, graphite, 70k miles, good op extras - Keeper
Scraper- 17 TZD Turbo E, blue, 208k miles - parts
Homer - 19 TXD E, Red, 189k miles - £250
Gary - 17 TZD Turbo E, 118k miles - in work

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by adamskibx »

I think it's been said another way, but the reason they may stop hydrophewmatic suspension is that it is expensive and people are unable to percieve it's advantages. Coil springs are very good, and any car is a comfortable way to move over long distances, so the advantages of the Citroen system are only appreciated by people, like me, who are looking to find fault with anything and appreciate the engineering for engineerings sake that fundamentaly is a significant improvement over the spring system. It involves a different law of physics, which in itself is interesting because it's the only system to do this other than certain Austin systems of the 60's and 70's, and if you think about it it makes sense that it should be superior. The fact that a serious manufacture of luxury cars such as Bently and Rolls royce paid to use the system under license shows that it must be fundamentally better, and to have introduced it on affordable cars, Citroen were unique and of the future; but economists and intelligence control dictates that we must regress, unfortunately. Keep the BX if you can by the way.

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by MULLEY »

Don't forget that safety standards probably have an impact on hydraulic systems which may not be able to get fitted to current designs so would require too much re-engineering & cost to make it the effort. The general public don't want hydraulic suspension, its percieved as being too expensive, likely to go wrong & makes the car handle like a boat, so springs win as every other car has them fitted, so they must be allright ;) Personally i'm not bothered if Citroen stop making hydraulic cars, they are bound to be shite with multiple safety systems having to be fitted to ensure that if a failure in the hydraulic system wouldn't disable the car totally like the BX is. This is why the latest cars have had to have 2 pumps fitted to ensure that the car was still safe to drive as it could be steered & has full braking even if one of the pumps went pop.
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1990 Gti 8Valve SOLD - looks like it's been scrapped
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1992 TXD - Scrapped in March 2014
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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by Thread Bear »

MULLEY wrote:Don't forget that safety standards probably have an impact on hydraulic systems which may not be able to get fitted to current designs so would require too much re-engineering & cost to make it the effort. The general public don't want hydraulic suspension, its percieved as being too expensive, likely to go wrong & makes the car handle like a boat, so springs win as every other car has them fitted, so they must be allright ;) Personally i'm not bothered if Citroen stop making hydraulic cars, they are bound to be shite with multiple safety systems having to be fitted to ensure that if a failure in the hydraulic system wouldn't disable the car totally like the BX is. This is why the latest cars have had to have 2 pumps fitted to ensure that the car was still safe to drive as it could be steered & has full braking even if one of the pumps went pop.
If that was really true why don't cars have a back up ECU? I am fed up of finding cars in recovery mode crawling about because the babies barfed over a seat belt sensor, or some such non emergency. Who is writing these rules and why? Accept things at face value and you are taken in by the system. The other manufacturers do not want Citroen using a superior system. Just as the Americans did not like us making Concord and saw to it it failed economically, finishing off what little aircraft manufacturing we had left. Putting the boot in is as old as the hills. What about Mercs etc and their inverted bottom ball joint. Failure means the wheel parts company at the bottom and toes out and into the wing causing damage/incident. Minor Trunnions, remember them. Same idea. Where is the censure for that. Broken springs, bla bla. Nope, not buying that one. Banning the opposition is business not progress, safety or any other excuse. Back along the French Government would have got behind Citroen and said 'None'. Either, politically they are not what they were, or the Pug peeps have won the argument in the company, meaning the State has not to protect its countries interests world wide, in the way we do not, which is why we have no car industry.
Miguel - 16 TRS Auto S, light blue, 43k miles - £450
Pluto - 14 E S, White, 105k Miles - in work
Egbert - 19 16v Gti, White, A/C & Leather, - Keeper
Walt - 17 TZD Turbo S, graphite, 70k miles, good op extras - Keeper
Scraper- 17 TZD Turbo E, blue, 208k miles - parts
Homer - 19 TXD E, Red, 189k miles - £250
Gary - 17 TZD Turbo E, 118k miles - in work

'87 Trooper, Borgwards, Saabs, MG ZB, Bellamy Trials, Fiat Jolly & Bianchina, Goggo Dart, Messerschmitt, Heinkel, Bubblecars

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by electrokid »

if Citroen's suspension is so good all cars didn't use it?
A few years ago I started feeling better about buying LHM - because the bottle started to be labelled "For Citroën and Rolls Royce cars". The BX suspension is still superior to much that is currently on the roads.
This is why the latest cars have had to have 2 pumps fitted to ensure that the car was still safe to drive as it could be steered & has full braking even if one of the pumps went pop.
What has happened to the Mini then ? I don't know what the arrangement is now, but they used to have a single electric pump driving the power steering - which was a safety issue when it failed.

Good luck with the decision Deltic - another possibility in case it might be appropriate - store the BX for summer use ?
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by deltic »

At the moment getting insurance quotes, so seems likely to be kept and run.
1991 BX GTi auto, grey, 137,000 miles (2015, 2017 & 2019 Citroen Classic Challenge veteran)
1991 BX GTi auto, grey, 85,000 miles
2006 C4 VTR+ 2.0 Coupé, silver, 73,000 miles

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Re: BX or not to BX? (and new MOT!)

Post by MULLEY »

ECU's going doolally isn't a perceived safety issue, just will annoy the hell out of you by going into limp home mode :( Mini power steering pumps getting noisy & pissing out oil again isn't a safety issue, not sure why though? our old mini had this exact same problem, when the steering became notchy it was time to refill the reservoir, eventually got it replaced when i took out an after market warranty & it was fine. Not sure why they had this problem though, crap design? It's all EU legislation bollxxks, so its designed to not make sense ;)
2002 C5 2.0 HDI Estate - Jasmine - Now SORN
2011 Mini Cooper D Clubman - SOLD
2016 Mercedes A180D Sport - Auto refinement
1992 TZD Turbo - Bluebell - My daily
1991 Gti 16V - Blaze - crash damaged, will get repaired.
1990 Gti 8Valve SOLD - looks like it's been scrapped
2002 Mini Cooper S - SOLD - i miss this car
1992 TXD - Scrapped in March 2014
1988 CX 25 GTI Turbo2 - SORN
1996 - AX Memphis 1.5D - Dream - SORN

I'm not just a username, i'm also called Matthew.