Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

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TZI
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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by TZI » Wed May 14, 2014 10:11 am

You might expect that electric fuel pump issues would be worse at higher revs when demand was greater? As you may know the fuel pump and ignition relays are inside plastic covers and screwed to the inner wing between the LHM reservoir and the RHS accumulator. If you have not already done so maybe try a new fuel pump relay?

My 1989, 8 valve GTi (that I ran from 5 to 13 years old - 75 to 150 K) always suffered badly from low speed kangarooing. This felt like the throttle was oscillating (a bit like a slowly bouncing golf ball). Regularly cleaning the throttle body and a new cap and rotor seemed to help a bit but never cured it. An injector clean and rolling road tune made little difference. I eventually decided that the issue must be with the plenum chamber. I imagined this might be the flap inside the air intake not being damped properly. I have never seen inside a plenum chamber so don’t know if this was a possibility. I did actually buy another plenum chamber to try but then my current TZi came along before I had fitted it and I jumped ship. I don’t think that the GTi’s symptoms were the same or ever as bad as yours but during 8.5 years I did spend a lot of money, time and effort trying to get it to run better but to no avail.

Apart from being an estate my 1991 TZi, is pretty much identical to the 1989 GTi but with a different engine (or at least a different head). From memory the TZi is rated about 3 HP less than the GTi (122 rather than 125) but the main difference is that max torque is quite a bit lower lower down (1,000rpm less?) making it much more driveable. It always pulls well through all rev ranges and has none of the low speed kangarooing. So far I have run the TZi from 11 to 23 years old (60 to 160 K) and apart from normal service items the engine has just needed a couple of sets of HT leads and a new cap and rotor every 15K or so. I have never cleaned the injectors and have only cleaned the inside of the throttle body once.

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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by rutter123 » Thu May 15, 2014 4:32 pm

Yes i can see your point re the oscillating flap in the airflow meter, thats how the car behaves when slowly accelerating, but im 99% sure it fuelling issues, and not enough of it, almost as if the engine is working hard to suck the fuel thru the injectors as opposed to to it being injected, everything feels a bit delayed, like not enough pressure in the rail, i have changed the FPR and know its ok,and also the lines right back to the tank, fuel flows freely under pressure but i guess not enough pressure?? Is thete a way to check fuel pressure at the rail?
90 BX Tzd turbo 294k SORN undergoing major surgery
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TZI
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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by TZI » Fri May 16, 2014 2:53 pm

Try searching for ‘fuel pulsation problems’ and ‘fuel pulsation damper’. The injectors on these engines share a common fuel injection rail and pulsation can cause issues.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=31272
http://injector-rehab.com/shop/fpd.html
I think that the BX has a fuel pulsation damper?

It seems that air pulsation can also be a problem. I read in a Toyota document that a larger air intake chamber and longer, narrower manifold runners reduce this. I seem to remember noticing that the intake manifold casting on my TZi was long, curved and generally much bigger than on the earlier GTi so perhaps this is the reason.

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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by rutter123 » Sat May 17, 2014 8:54 am

I think i may have found the problem, the fuel pump i was sent is only rated at 1.1 bar according to cross reference of the part no, tho identical in size to the 2.5 bar pump they should have sent, they are sending a replacement out and hopefully resolve the problem.
90 BX Tzd turbo 294k SORN undergoing major surgery
90 BX Tzd turbo estate 46k awaiting surgery
65 Peugeot Boxer Van the new workhorse
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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by TZI » Sat May 17, 2014 12:34 pm

Good luck - but didn't you have the problem before you changed the fuel pump?
Hopefully the old one was also the cause of original problem.
Please let us know how you get on.

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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by Tim Leech » Sat May 17, 2014 3:40 pm

Well done! the purge valve is only for 1.6/1.9I models with a catalyst.

How is the car in general, any pictures?
1963 VW BEETLE 1200
1985 BX 19GT Mk1
1991 BX 19TZI Auto A/C
1994 Xantia 1.8i SX
1972 Morris Marina 1.8 SDL
1979 Rover SD1 V8-S
1980 Morris Marina 1.7HL
2002 Rover 75 CDTi Connossieur SE AUTO Nav
2003 Rover 25 1.6i XL 5 DR

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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by rutter123 » Sun May 18, 2014 11:32 am

TZI wrote:Good luck - but didn't you have the problem before you changed the fuel pump?
Hopefully the old one was also the cause of original problem.
Please let us know how you get on.
Yes this prob has persisted since i got the car, only run it briefly when i brought it, enough to get it onto the trailer, never actually drove it any distance due to it not having the rad fitted so im non the wiser as to where or how this prob has arisen,i changed the pump as the old one was fluctuating and didnt sound right as if something had broken off inside and was rattling around, was better after changing the pump but still not right, hopefully the issues will be solved once the correct pump arrives. The hesitation seems to get worse the emptier the tank gets.
90 BX Tzd turbo 294k SORN undergoing major surgery
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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by Jaba » Mon May 19, 2014 11:32 pm

rutter123 wrote: The hesitation seems to get worse the emptier the tank gets.
That sounds suspiciously like water in the fuel tank as this lies in the bottom and more of it gets picked up when the level is low. You can pump some fuel out into a milk bottle or similar to see if the fuel is contaminated.
The Joy of BX with just one Citroën to my name now. Will I sing Bye Bye to my GTI or will it be Till death us do part.

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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by rutter123 » Tue May 20, 2014 5:48 pm

There is no water or foreign objects in the tank, i checked all this wnen i fitted the new fuel lines, even removed the sender to check inside the tank, i run the tank empty to do this, i have noted a very fast pulsing in the supply line to the fuel rail, is this normal?
90 BX Tzd turbo 294k SORN undergoing major surgery
90 BX Tzd turbo estate 46k awaiting surgery
65 Peugeot Boxer Van the new workhorse
52 Toyota Rav4 180k Bulletproof Jap reliability

TZI
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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by TZI » Sun May 25, 2014 2:47 pm

Pictures as requested.
Have put the alloys back on since this picture taken.
Needs a clean and a polish...
Attachments
DSCF1774s.jpg
DSCF1771s.jpg

TZI
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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by TZI » Sun May 25, 2014 9:31 pm

"i have noted a very fast pulsing in the supply line to the fuel rail, is this normal?"

Just had a look in my Haines manual and it says there is a fuel pulsation damper 'near the fuel filter'. Might be worth a look?

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Tim Leech
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1972 Morris Marina 1.8 SDL BFA720L
1979 Rover SD1 3.5 V8-S TSL 982
1980 Morris Marina 1.7HL DBV468W
1985 CITROEN BX 19GT C1TBX
1991 CITROEN BX 19TZI AUTO A/C BXi 19
1994 CITROEN XANTIA 1.8 SXi M908HRY
2002 Rover 75 CDT Connossieur SE Nav Auto R40TSL
2003 Rover 25 1.6i XL L33CHT
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Re: Hesitating 1991 BX19 TZI - Canister purge electrovalve?

Post by Tim Leech » Tue May 27, 2014 9:27 pm

Rare car! Estate version of mine.
1963 VW BEETLE 1200
1985 BX 19GT Mk1
1991 BX 19TZI Auto A/C
1994 Xantia 1.8i SX
1972 Morris Marina 1.8 SDL
1979 Rover SD1 V8-S
1980 Morris Marina 1.7HL
2002 Rover 75 CDTi Connossieur SE AUTO Nav
2003 Rover 25 1.6i XL 5 DR