A non-sinking feeling...

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rutter123
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by rutter123 » Sat May 14, 2016 4:35 pm

Dont buy your LHM from Halfrauds, 5 litre cans of LHM plus are available on ebay for £20 free postage and Hydraflush for about £30, your'e lucky Halfrauds even stock LHM as last time i asked (in an emergency) they didn't even know what it was and asked if hydraulic jack oil would do-there staff are so well trained !!!
The Y piece on top the lhm reservoir on my t/d has gone i have just fed that little leak off return pipe straight into the cap it's been like this for several years and seems to be ok, the reservoir tank seems to breathe ok without the extra bit of pipework.

I may have the Y piece and pipework if you need it on the tzd breaker, also the check valve and h/c's .
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by northernchap » Sat May 14, 2016 4:39 pm

OK, just been out to the car and here is an update.

Firstly, the black pipe. I traced it around and it goes around the back of the engine then under the battery where it joins to another thin transparent piece of pipe. This then goes into the bottom of the sphere behind the radiator. Is this correct? As suggested earlier, I removed the T piece and connected the black pipe directly to the filler cap like so:

Image

This seems to have stopped the leaking so that's good. I also traced the clear pipe that was connected to the T piece, that seems to go into the bundle of hoses that disappear into a sheath just next to the reservoir. I guess it goes under the car somewhere. I left it disconnected for now, it can't have been doing much if anything.

I got the backend up on ramps, traced the rod from the height adjuster lever, coated the linkages in 3 in 1 spray and then doused the actual HC itself for good measure. I then jacked up the front, took off the drivers wheel and soaked everything I could see through the hole pretty much. Took the car back down and started it up.

No change whatsoever - front still down and hard, back still up and bouncy. I tried sitting in the boot, both with the engine running and with it off. Didn't adjust at all either time, stayed right up. I tried bouncing both ends a fair bit to see if anything might free off, but no joy.

So I went back to the engine bay and tried to see if anything was amiss. The pump hoses are OK and not split or anything and the belt is still there. I then realised I hadn't heard it ticking so I waited with the engine running but no tick. So, here's a hypothesis - perhaps with all the leaking earlier, I lost enough fluid to go below minimum and upset the pump. Even though I put more LHM in to make up for the leak (which is when I noticed the colour...) maybe it was too late and the pump is dry.

In which case, perhaps priming the pump might get it going again, at least enough to get it to the garage - anyone with more experience have any thoughts?
1992 BX17 TZD Turbo Diesel Estate [Red]
1988 Fiat Panda 4x4 [NATO green]
1991 Peugeot 309 GLD [Champagne beige]
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by Way2go » Sat May 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Presumably the car has power steering? If so, then you should be able to tell whether this is working when the engine is running. If its working then the pump is primed. Also if its working, there is a diverter valve that moves pressure away from the suspension when steering assistance is required so this is another area of valves that could be gunged up & stuck in the wrong mode.
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ken newbold
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by ken newbold » Sat May 14, 2016 8:19 pm

The pipework has defo been altered (bodged) for whatever reason. How often is the regulator clicking? if the accumulator sphere is flat it normally blows off that thin nylon pipe that goes over the gearbox and Tees into the returns on the subframe, but that thick black pipe should not be stuck in the filler cap.
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by Way2go » Sat May 14, 2016 8:37 pm

northernchap wrote:OK, just been out to the car and here is an update.

Firstly, the black pipe. I traced it around and it goes around the back of the engine then under the battery where it joins to another thin transparent piece of pipe. This then goes into the bottom of the sphere behind the radiator. Is this correct? As suggested earlier, I removed the T piece and connected the black pipe directly to the filler cap like so: [Image]
This seems to have stopped the leaking so that's good.
This then suggests that your Pressure Regulator is faulty as there should not be any continuous flow in this line. Possible damage may have been caused by long term running on a "flat" accumulator sphere.
1991 BX19GTi Auto

rutter123
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by rutter123 » Sat May 14, 2016 8:45 pm

My prognosis is you really need to change that fluid as a first step, i would suspect that the fluid you have in the res. is not compressing enough to lift the front as the front is a fair bit heavier than the rear, even with a flat accumulator sphere it should still lift the front. Your hydraulic pump will be working exceptionally hard to try to pump fluid round most likely not building up enough pressure to operate the pressure regulator hence the car behaving as so.
Most of the rubber pipes from the res that go down behind the engine are return pipes (low pressure) that lead to the octopus so doubtful this will be the cause of your problems.
If your LHM level is too low fluid may not reach the hyd pump.
Personally i would drain fluid, change the hyd pump to a known good one, flush the system-repeat flush, fill with fresh LHM then at least you have a good starting point, i think adding new fluid to the "salad cream" you already have is a waste of time. The bx system works at extremely high pressure and the wrong blood will just poison the arteries.
Once this is done i suspect that you may at worst need to replace one component if any If the car was fine beforehand.
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ken newbold
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by ken newbold » Sat May 14, 2016 9:42 pm

I've just cleaned out the filters and refilled this BX with new LHM, I have to say this is the lightest coloured LHM I have ever seen, when it's mixed with air under pressure it gives a very milky appearance, as for the smell, I can't say for sure except to say it smells pretty bad anyway. I really can't believe that Malcolm would put anything in there that shouldn't be.

Here's some pics of this TZD that hasn't beed modified. There should be 2 black pipes coming up from behind the engine, one rubber, one nylon. The rubber one should bend down just behind the reservoir and turn under it and join to the big rubber T piece in the centre of the bunch of pipes. The nylon one should come round the inner wing and plug into the same T piece on the opposite side. The problem with Malcolm's mod is you now have LHM returning into the tank that is unfiltered.

Hope the photos help

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by northernchap » Mon May 16, 2016 8:22 pm

Thanks for all the help everyone but I'm still not getting anywhere with it. I'm going to have to think about this one a bit more and try to get it clear.

Here are the facts:
  • When I bought the car two weeks ago, the suspension was normal at both ends and the brakes and steering seemed OK. It was ticking every 45 seconds or so.
  • When I loaded the car up at the back, it sank and then rose fine when the engine was started.
  • When I unloaded the car, it rose higher at the back (engine was off) and stayed up.
  • I then drove it to work, and had to leave it there for a couple of days.
  • When I returned to it, the back was still high and the nose was low.
  • There was a puddle of LHM on the floor at the offside front, this looked fairly clear but was quite large.
  • I opened the LHM reservoir and it looked quite horrible in there but I added some more LHM to replace what had leaked out.
  • Now, the car is high at the back but on the stops at the front. No matter what I do with the lever, neither end moves.
  • Mechanically I have done nothing with the car other than top up the LHM and oil the height correctors to see if that helped.
  • There is no ticking at all when I run the engine, the steering seems to move easily but I'm not used to the car enough to say pump is definitely OK.
  • The only potential other thing I can think of is that the fusebox is hanging down and I did try to get it to go back up into the dashboard but failed.
So - although the pipework may have been bodged in the past, I think it must work to some degree as it hasn't been altered since the car worked. Ditto the fluid - it might be manky but it must have been like that before. The height correctors could have seized, but surely not both at once and the car did adjust itself not two weeks ago.

Possibly if something incorrect has been put in the reservoir, it's taken a while to get through the pipework as the 'good' fluid leaked out onto the floor?

But why is there no ticking? Is there a relay or fuse that might affect that? What is it that ticks, the pressure regulator?

I totally agree that I need to change the fluid, my priority now is to just get the front end to lift up if at all possible because even getting it on a recovery truck is going to be challenging as it is. I can get some flush but it'll take a few days and if there is no ticking then it probably won't even get anywhere?
1992 BX17 TZD Turbo Diesel Estate [Red]
1988 Fiat Panda 4x4 [NATO green]
1991 Peugeot 309 GLD [Champagne beige]
1965 Ford Mustang [Black]

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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by Richb » Tue May 17, 2016 9:59 am

Just my pennies worth. Could it be a rear load sensing fault? I dont yet know how the system works for load sensing. I guess its part of the height correctors. But there seems a coincidence of being normal. Then loading with the now legendery 200 bottles of wine and it now being a firm load which wont aettle.
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by Defender110 » Tue May 17, 2016 10:24 am

northernchap wrote:OK, just been out to the car and here is an update.

Firstly, the black pipe. I traced it around and it goes around the back of the engine then under the battery where it joins to another thin transparent piece of pipe. This then goes into the bottom of the sphere behind the radiator. Is this correct? As suggested earlier, I removed the T piece and connected the black pipe directly to the filler cap like so:

Image

This seems to have stopped the leaking so that's good. I also traced the clear pipe that was connected to the T piece, that seems to go into the bundle of hoses that disappear into a sheath just next to the reservoir. I guess it goes under the car somewhere. I left it disconnected for now, it can't have been doing much if anything.
Dealing with one problem at a time this is definitely not correct. The clear pipe that goes into the sheath is the return pipe that should go into the 'Y' piece and into the cap (This pipe is just an overflow pipe for any excess LHM bypassed from the front struts), another short length of thin clear pipe (missing on yours) which is a breather only pipe attaches to the 'Y' and vents into the inner wing. The thick black leg you have returning into the cap should not be connected there, is this a snapped octopus leg?

The rear suspension too high is unconnected to this.
Kevan
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by Defender110 » Tue May 17, 2016 11:09 am

IMHO; You need to start with both height correctors freeing them off so they operate as they should on the rods followed by a flushing and top up of your LHM fluid before you can eliminate any further problems.
Kevan
1987 Citroen BX MK1 diesel estate.(Currently in dry storage)
1997 Mercedes C230 W202 - daily driver.
2010 BMW X1 SE 2.0D Auto - Her indoors daily driver.
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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by Tinkley » Tue May 17, 2016 11:35 am

FWIW I have transported almost 2,000 full size bricks in the BX (hatch) 250 per go without any suspension problems. A bit lively at 60+mph... :wink: makes 200 wine bottles look light... :wink:

Height corrector seems the most likely. wonder if the setting is slipping round? then the system would think it was in the wrong position and compensate. Make sure the car is fully jacked/supported when playing with the setting as it can drop suddenly.

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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by northernchap » Tue May 17, 2016 12:27 pm

Defender110 wrote: Dealing with one problem at a time this is definitely not correct. The clear pipe that goes into the sheath is the return pipe that should go into the 'Y' piece and into the cap (This pipe is just an overflow pipe for any excess LHM bypassed from the front struts), another short length of thin clear pipe (missing on yours) which is a breather only pipe attaches to the 'Y' and vents into the inner wing. The thick black leg you have returning into the cap should not be connected there, is this a snapped octopus leg?

The rear suspension too high is unconnected to this.
Just to be totally clear on this - the black pipe which I currently have connected to the LHM cap was originally also connected to the T piece into the same cap. If you trace the thick black pipe, it goes around the back of the engine, underneath the battery, and then is joined to a thin clear piece of pipe (straight join not a T) which connects to the bottom of the sphere behind the radiator low down at the front.

I guess the original clear pipe deteriorated and someone spliced in the thicker black piece. There was also another clear pipe connected to the T piece, this bends around and appears to go into a sheath of pipes slightly below the reservoir, where it goes from there I do not know but it's possible it goes into the inner wing. This piece is still here but I disconnected it because I was advised that it was just a breather and the cap is so loose that it can breathe anyway.

Before I modified it to look like the picture above, the black pipe was too loose on the T piece which was causing fluid to leak out and run down the reservoir onto the floor. That implies that the fluid was coming from the sphere at the front and returning to the reservoir which I guess is what is supposed to happen as a return? The mod is just stopping the leak, it hasn't changed where the pipe was connected to before.

I did think originally that the height correctors could be the issue, but it seems strange that neither end raises or lowers at all to me - you would think maybe one or the other would go but not both at once surely? And wouldn't it still tick even with the correctors stuck? My logic might be flawed but when the car was alright it would tick even when no changes were made to the height, so am I wrong in thinking it should still be ticking?

Thanks for all the help on this everyone, I do appreciate it and I know it's a complicated one especially at a distance! :)

Oh, and the Hydraflush is on order...
1992 BX17 TZD Turbo Diesel Estate [Red]
1988 Fiat Panda 4x4 [NATO green]
1991 Peugeot 309 GLD [Champagne beige]
1965 Ford Mustang [Black]

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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by Defender110 » Tue May 17, 2016 2:00 pm

northernchap wrote:Just to be totally clear on this - the black pipe which I currently have connected to the LHM cap was originally also connected to the T piece into the same cap. If you trace the thick black pipe, it goes around the back of the engine, underneath the battery, and then is joined to a thin clear piece of pipe (straight join not a T) which connects to the bottom of the sphere behind the radiator low down at the front.

Yes I realise that but it shouldn't have been, as I stated the only return that should go to the cap via the 'Y' piece is the one which is coming out of the sheaf which is the weep off from the front struts, the big black pipe that was connected to the DIY 'T' piece that you have now directly connected to the cap is a higher flow return that is normally part of the octopus.

I guess the original clear pipe deteriorated and someone spliced in the thicker black piece. There was also another clear pipe connected to the T piece, this bends around and appears to go into a sheath of pipes slightly below the reservoir, where it goes from there I do not know from the front struts but it's possible it goes into the inner wing no it doesn'tThis piece is still here but I disconnected it because I was advised that it was just a breather and the cap is so loose that it can breathe anyway. the short breather pipe is missing, this is the strut overflow weep pipe

Before I modified it to look like the picture above, the black pipe was too loose on the T piece which was causing fluid to leak out and run down the reservoir onto the floor. That implies that the fluid was coming from the sphere at the front and returning to the reservoir which I guess is what is supposed to happen as a return? The mod is just stopping the leak, it hasn't changed where the pipe was connected to before.

I did think originally that the height correctors could be the issue, but it seems strange that neither end raises or lowers at all to me - you would think maybe one or the other would go but not both at once surely? And wouldn't it still tick even with the correctors stuck? My logic might be flawed but when the car was alright it would tick even when no changes were made to the height, so am I wrong in thinking it should still be ticking?

Thanks for all the help on this everyone, I do appreciate it and I know it's a complicated one especially at a distance! :)

Oh, and the Hydraflush is on order...
But this is only connected to your LHM leak not the suspension sticking issue.
Kevan
1987 Citroen BX MK1 diesel estate.(Currently in dry storage)
1997 Mercedes C230 W202 - daily driver.
2010 BMW X1 SE 2.0D Auto - Her indoors daily driver.
2003 Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5 - Daily driver / hobby days and camping.
1993 Land Rover Discovery 200tdi Series 1 3 door - in need of TLC

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Re: A non-sinking feeling...

Post by northernchap » Tue May 17, 2016 3:00 pm

With you now, cheers! It's hard to try to puzzle it all out when you don't know how it's supposed to be but this helps.
1992 BX17 TZD Turbo Diesel Estate [Red]
1988 Fiat Panda 4x4 [NATO green]
1991 Peugeot 309 GLD [Champagne beige]
1965 Ford Mustang [Black]