My BX14 RE

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RobC
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by RobC »

Tbf if the starter doesn’t like playing ball when hot, it’s also potentially an issue with the starter itself rather than a switch issue. Might need new brushes and a general internal clean up. I’d get a secondhand one and renew the brushes etc at your leisure, then swop them out and flog the old one. Same starter used in a myriad of Citroen / pug engines so they’re not hard to come by.
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Fumbler »

RobC wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 11:29 am
Tbf if the starter doesn’t like playing ball when hot, it’s also potentially an issue with the starter itself rather than a switch issue. Might need new brushes and a general internal clean up. I’d get a secondhand one and renew the brushes etc at your leisure, then swop them out and flog the old one. Same starter used in a myriad of Citroen / pug engines so they’re not hard to come by.
If my thinking is correct, someone somewhere may have already fitted a separate feed to the starter. The cabelling is newer, as is the kopex conduit it's in. I think my next course of action will be to attempt cleaning up the connections at the starter itself. I'm fairly certain it's never been off the engine at all. It's also in a really horrible place to access but my arms and hands are tiny and I can bend... sort of!
Truth be told, I haven't looked at the connections at the starter at all, I've just looked at it to see where it mounts. Ill try and clean up those connections this weekend if I can get some sandpaper.

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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by white exec »

Those battery clamps look better.

To check whether there is already a/an added relay somewhere on the starter circuit, disconnect the starter solenoid (the small cable connection at the solenoid), and turn the IGN key slowly to 'crank'. If there is a relay there, you should hear it click. If no click, probably no relay.

Battery: The Yuasa YBX3096 is on Amazon UK at £69. Better (diesel) than that Halfords one.
Terminal positions are:
|_-_______+_|
i.e. neg nearest the bulkhead, when terminals nearest to engine.

Think you'll need to progressively lift away some of that added wiring. Do a bit at a time, and check everything of value still works!
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by white exec »

Others will know better, but iirc BX struts cannot burst through (like Xantia and XM) if the rubber fails.
I believe the size of the metal top aperture would prevent this.
Stand to be corrected, though.
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Fumbler »

white exec wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 1:30 pm
Those battery clamps look better.

To check whether there is already a/an added relay somewhere on the starter circuit, disconnect the starter solenoid (the small cable connection at the solenoid), and turn the IGN key slowly to 'crank'. If there is a relay there, you should hear it click. If no click, probably no relay.

Battery: The Yuasa YBX3096 is on Amazon UK at £69. Better (diesel) than that Halfords one.
Terminal positions are:
|_-_______+_|
i.e. neg nearest the bulkhead, when terminals nearest to engine.

Think you'll need to progressively lift away some of that added wiring. Do a bit at a time, and check everything of value still works!
Will do. I have the suspicion the starter's connections outside or inside are knackered as it cranks over fine when the car and engine is cold. It's original, had 95000 miles put onto it before being laid up and has probably never been off the car. I'll do some more probing tomorrow and see if it A: has a relay and B: if the connections need retightening/cleaning up.
Knowing P=I^2R, the failure to crank when hot, but fine when cold, suggests an already poor connection gets resistive enough to stop the motor from working when the engine bay heats up. When this happened the first time, the main engine earth from the battery acted as the fuse and burned. Now that I've doubled the cable size, the high resistance joint will be the fust instead. Not ideal, but if worst comes to worst, at least I know where a/the fault is. I plan to nip it in the bud before that happens! I don't want any exciting fires to happen.

Thanks for the battery, I'll get it ordered at some point.

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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Fumbler »

I thought it prudent to begin diagnosing the issue with my starter motor not cranking the engine. Replacing the main earth helped, because it turns over faster than it did before, but the battery is too small. The Yuasa 096 size battery has since been ordered.
PXL_20210521_174322189.jpg
I disconnected the spade connector to the ignition switch and there's no click, so no relay retrofit. So, looking at the motor solenoid, we have 3 external cables connecting to it. The large lug at the top connects directly with the battery. I have no idea about where the crimped cable behind is going or what it's doing. Regardless, it's connected to the positive of the solenoid so it must be doing something somewhere...

This is what a new unit looks like for comparison:
s-l1600.jpg
EDIT: After reconnecting the spade connector, I checked to make sure the car still cranks over, but there a delay of half a second before anything happens. I wonder if the switch or solenoid is giving out.
What does the hive mind think? I'll get out the multimeter tomorrow to see if it's still connected elsewhere. I have a suspicion that the cable in conduit is a replacement as it's newer than the rest of the wiring present, however that may be incorrect. Access is horrible so fumbling around with a socket set and sandpaper while being pinned in place with the intake manifold might be entertaining.
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by white exec »

The crimped cable connected to the top large terminal (which goes to Batt+) is likely to be the alternator main output . . . as this needs to feed to Batt+. Often wired like this, because alternator and starter solenoid are in close proximity.

The delay you're experiencing between key turn and starter action is almost certainly a poor contact, or poor battery delivery.
- Fit the new battery
- Fit the additional relay
(not necessarily in that order)
and see what happens.
As you say, it might be a good idea to run a new cable (2.5mm²) from Batt+ to new relay to the spade terminal,
and just use the old cable to energise the relay.
You could try the relay first, while waiting for the battery to arrive.
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Pcheaven »

I had a similar issue with a delay from key turn to engine turn.
It was a badly fitted battery terminal, the cable was loose in side making a poor contact.
Temporary fix was to disassemble, clean and refit.
New battery block in the boot. Waiting on me to instal.
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Fumbler »

Pcheaven wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 10:14 pm
I had a similar issue with a delay from key turn to engine turn.
It was a badly fitted battery terminal, the cable was loose in side making a poor contact.
Temporary fix was to disassemble, clean and refit.
New battery block in the boot. Waiting on me to instal.
white exec wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 10:08 pm
The crimped cable connected to the top large terminal (which goes to Batt+) is likely to be the alternator main output . . . as this needs to feed to Batt+. Often wired like this, because alternator and starter solenoid are in close proximity.

The delay you're experiencing between key turn and starter action is almost certainly a poor contact, or poor battery delivery.
- Fit the new battery
- Fit the additional relay
(not necessarily in that order)
and see what happens.
As you say, it might be a good idea to run a new cable (2.5mm²) from Batt+ to new relay to the spade terminal,
and just use the old cable to energise the relay.
You could try the relay first, while waiting for the battery to arrive.
Thanks both. I've obtained sandpaper so I can at least clean up the main connections at the solenoid and see what happens. Like I've mentioned previously, positive battery connections at the clamp were redone before I bought the car, and the amount of space and free room I have, in the relay box on the scuttle and around the engine bay, will almost certainly allow me to install bits and pieces at my leisure and when time and money allows.

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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Jaba »

An easy way to see if it is the starter being lazy is to connect a lead directly to the starter solenoid.
It can be instructive to measure the voltage at the solenoid while cranking to see what the voltage drop is. If you do it before and after the battery change you will know if the Yuasa has given you a boost.
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Fumbler »

Jaba wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 11:27 pm
An easy way to see if it is the starter being lazy is to connect a lead directly to the starter solenoid.
It can be instructive to measure the voltage at the solenoid while cranking to see what the voltage drop is. If you do it before and after the battery change you will know if the Yuasa has given you a boost.
I had a feeling I could do that- I'll see if anybody has jumpleads I can use tomorrow. A jumplead will be the perfect length from the post to the solenoid.

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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by rutter123 »

Looking at the condition of your original starter I think I would be inclined to replace it, there's plenty on ebay for not a lot of £s. More for peace of mind than anything else.
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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Fumbler »

rutter123 wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 7:48 am
Looking at the condition of your original starter I think I would be inclined to replace it, there's plenty on ebay for not a lot of £s. More for peace of mind than anything else.
I've got one for £notverymuch on my watch list that I may purchase after payday next week. All things considered, the starter looks like the grottiest part in the engine bay.

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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by Fumbler »

Did sod all this weekend. The weather was rough today so I had no chance of doing any investigation. With that said though, I've priced up parts for a solenoid relay and wires. It's cheap enough so I'll order that and fit when I replace the starter itself.

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Re: My BX14 RE

Post by David »

There's a mod mentioned somewhere on this forum about completely bypassing the ignition switch with relays, which I've done myself. There are 4 circuits on the ignition switch. Simply put, you just need to put relays in to take the load. It's particularly useful when the switch contacts are getting worn & produce high resistance. It might be worthwhile finding the post about it on here & looking into it further. Even if it's your starter motor that's causing the problems, it'd be worthwhile so you have less problems in the future.

Looking at the state of the starter motor though, I'd just replace it. Sure, it might be OK, BUT it might also be on the brink of failing completely, leaving you stranded somewhere. I've never worked on a 1.4 BX, but if it's the same as my Xsara, it's not too difficult to do, just you have to work by touch, instead of looking what you're doing.

As your your concern about the strut tops; when they failed on my car, they didn't dislodge or go through the bonnet, But the strut tops moved around affecting the handling & they knocked as they moved around or when going over bumps. If they're worn out, they'll need replacing in any instance. Once you get the parts, they're not that hard to do, provided that you've got all the tools & parts that you need.

Hope that helps.
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