Aircon question

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tim leech

Post by tim leech »

Mine doesnt work as someones take the compressor off!

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Way2go
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Post by Way2go »

tim leech wrote:Mine doesnt work as someones take the compressor off!
Well do the R134a conversion while it's off , refit & refill & enjoy being cooled in this current summer heatwave. :mrgreen:
1991 BX19GTi Auto

tim leech

Post by tim leech »

R134a what lol

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Philip Chidlow
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Post by Philip Chidlow »

OK I have had RS24 put in mine and it lasts about 14 months before I figure it needs a recharge. The guy put UV dye in it last year so I'll find out if there's a bad leak I guess, but how do I go about converting the system to R134a??!

I can't do it myself - maybe I should ask the bloke (who's a reasonable chap). Maybe it'll cost a bit... Maybe, if I keep the car another 4 years it'll pay for itself...

Oh well... :roll:
• 1992 Citroen BX TZD Turbo Hurricane
• 2006 Xsara Picasso 1.6 16v

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Post by AlanS »

mat_fenwick wrote: Alan, do you mean the twin blower fans? From memory (don't have your write up to hand) didn't you have a situation where one fan was wired the other way round? Both mine are blowing as they should be.

After reading the other recent post on the board, my system may be icing up as I have only measured the temperature at the vent with it drawing in fresh (read cold and wet) air.

I am guessing that the coldest air will be achieved with forward motion and the control on recirculate?

One last thing - a plug for http://www.ariazone.co.uk/ who sourced me a condenser when most places didn't even list it. It arrived from France within a few days.
From memory, the actual fan blade was fitted assup after the fans were taken apart, cleaned, lubed and reassembled. (but not tested before refitting) :oops:
On the job we did, the car didn't have the second fan fitted, in fact it didn't even have a place to fit it, so that was a monster job.
It's my opinion that BX air/cons run so cold at the coil that they cannot stand fresh (moist) air passing over them, so it's important for the outside air to be well sealed off and yes the extra air passing through the condensor will increase the efficiency along with the fact that when in forward motion, the engine and therefore the compressor is revving faster and so is displacing more refrigerant through the system.
Reading an article on that site you posted, I would be wary of using some of the DIY kits from Halfords as it seems they are more cocktail than straight 134a.
Tracer dyes are straight from the book of dodgy work practices as the dye is in itself a contaminent albeit a small one. Any tradesman worth his salt should be able to pick it either with a detector or by telltale oil stains. Any leak small enough to need a tracer to find it, is usually too small to be a real problem anyway, and leak stoppers are straight from "the house of bodge."
If converted properly as in all the "O" rings and filter dryer replaced and a careful check around the T/X there is no reason apart from shoddy workmanship or bad luck (rock through condensor and the like) that will cause the system to leak apart from small losses through permeation of the hoses.Various gases have different properties and some require all "O" rings to be changed to neoprene types whilst others don't. Some work on the oil and filter dessicant used in the old R12 systems, others require it to be changed. Some require different hoses to be used, others work on the ones that came with the car and so on, so it is almost impossible to say one gas is better than the other.
The greatest impediment we all have these days as regards sorting car air/con is that the people doing the servicing in many cases, and it seems a Worldwide phenomena, in the way they are ripping off the general public with their charges. As an example, my son bought a Lancer about 4 years ago. Service records showed that it was "converted" to 134a about 4 years earlier but had been in for at least one gas top up a year, sometimes two from then until he bought the car. Soon after he got it, it again failed.
I did a check over about 2 or so years ago and discovered the A$1500 conversion (about 1997) :shock: had only included one "O" ring being changed. Each service, the word "Tracer dye" appeared and the crap that came out of the sump of the compressor was like green cordial; it was almost 100% dye. I discovered the main problem was a fitting inside the evaporator cover at a union near the T?X that had never had an "O" ring on it obviously right from the factory as well as a couple of external leaks. The repairers were charging heaps per service, were putting the dye in, but obviously were never putting the U/V light over the system and so were never finding the leaks and also even if they did, it was obvious they had never removed the evaporator cover. Just slack workmanship being charged at tradesmans rates.
So if the repair industry over there wants to bemoan the fact that DIYers are using some dodgy products, then I suggest they clean their own act up so people will use them instead of being forced into DIY, they may have to forego profits for principles. Can't see that happening.

Alan

P.S. FYI, a conversion usually consists of R & R compressor, draining oil and refilling. Supply and fit new filter/dryer, replace all old rubber "O" rings with green neoprene types. Evacuate system and recharge.
Total time for a BX say 1 1/2 hours.
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Post by tom »

I'd go with what Alan says regarding changing the oil, O rings and drier. A full R134a conversion is the proper way to go and, done properly will last for many years. The compressor, according to the manufacturer is, although not designed for it, perfectly serviceable for use with R134a without reconditioning.

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Post by AlanS »

to clarify; my comment in the PS re: R & R was remove and replace not remove and recondition. :wink:

Alan S
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tim leech

Post by tim leech »

Sounds expensive! Will get the important bits done first me thinks!

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Post by AlanS »

I just bought a couple of receiver dryers for a mate. Cost A$35 each.
"O" rings about 30 - 50 cents each (say A$5 max)
If the T/X is cactus, about another A$65

Total there approx: - A$105 = 42.4278 GBP
Plus gas and oil.

Methinks you might need a few 40+ days to help get your priorities right!! Amazing how a couple of those turn a luxury into a necessity :twisted: :twisted:


Alan S :wink:
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Post by tom »

Ah, sorry mate; translation error! . The job costs very little, certainly under £100 including gas if it is done methodically. It becomes a necessity as soon as you have sat in an air conditioned BX on a warm day. Ask Mr B!

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Post by Way2go »

tom wrote:Ah, sorry mate; translation error! . The job costs very little, certainly under £100 including gas if it is done methodically. It becomes a necessity as soon as you have sat in an air conditioned BX on a warm day. Ask Mr B!
Any recommendations on where to buy the following bits from one who has been there before? As I understand from what has been reccommended before:

1) Green neoprene 'o' rings, qty 8
2) Low Pressure switch
3) Receiver/Dryer, qty 1
4) R12 to R134 pipe connection conversions, qty?
5) A man who can evacuate R12+oil & Refill with R134a+oil

Item 4 is still confusing because is Allan saying that removal of the oil is accomplished by removing the compressor & tipping it out and replacing it on the car? Would this reduce the cost of recharging?

Is recharging something that can be done effectively DIY? Is it worth a few of us getting systems prepared independently and then getting together to diy recharging?

Is there a citroen procedure written for the modification of R12 to R134a on the BX?

All clarifications gratefully received. :?
1991 BX19GTi Auto

tom
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Post by tom »

I bought a couple of bags of O rings (They are different sizes) from Polar aircon but you might well find that they are more cheaply available from other sources. You don't need the switch but you do need the drier (Shop around- I paid a lot.) . Remove and drain the compressor and fill it with 140cc of PAG10 oil. (Polar again).
Junk the old drier. If you have the plumbing out, then washing out the pipes and condenser with white spirit is acceptable but not entirely necessary and leave the evaporator alone. Connectors have to come from a specialist but might come from Ebay. Once you have put it all back together, Have it vacuumed down for an hour before filling with 800g of R134a for the TZI system or 1Kg for the 16V one. Get these figures right, overcharging is as bad as undercharging.

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Post by Way2go »

tom wrote:Have it vacuumed down for an hour before filling with 800g of R134a for the TZI system or 1Kg for the 16V one. Get these figures right, overcharging is as bad as undercharging.
Which system is the equivalent of the Mk2 8v GTi ?

Thanks
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Post by Mr B »

tom wrote:Ah, sorry mate; translation error! . The job costs very little, certainly under £100 including gas if it is done methodically. It becomes a necessity as soon as you have sat in an air conditioned BX on a warm day. Ask Mr B!

Oh yes!
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Post by AlanS »

Gents,

Forgive me if some of my responses are sounding a little hard to comprehend as I am still presently battling some bloody virus that makes the Beubonic plague feel like a pleasure, so if I do a bit of double talk, just ask questions and I won't be offended. :roll:

I'll retrace this although Tom has pretty well covered it.
1) Green neoprene 'o' rings, qty 8
2) Low Pressure switch
3) Receiver/Dryer, qty 1
4) R12 to R134 pipe connection conversions, qty?
5) A man who can evacuate R12+oil & Refill with R134a+oil
1) - Get together and do a bulk buy. They come in packets of I think it's 20 and 50. It will cost literally pence each.

2) Unless it's stffed - forget it

3) Receiver dryer: The ones I buy are made in Canada, so you guys should be able to get them. Unfortunately, no brand name stamped on them but have some things stuck on them and they have these ID markings. XH9 (Dessicant type) Model 961.
Brand sticker "Jayair" Part no: 0128
Stencilled on in white paint is "J81281"
They cost me A$35 each.
I understand that when my lad collected them, the guy at the parts shop commented that they also fitted other cars in particluar a Holden Camira which I think was a rebadged Isuzu of some description, so may be also available at other than refrigeration places.

4) These connections are mainly there as a precaution and fit over the schraeder valves used to connect the gauges to. In the early days of the R12 - R134a conversions, it was to prevent mechanics accidentally slipping the wrong gas in; many service people these days don't use them; not expensive (like a couple of short bits of alloy pipe) and I would imagine most repairers would have a boxful or two kicking around & that they'd knock a couple on if needed.

5) Remove compressor from car, upend it and let as much oil as possible drain out. Try not to do it in rainy weather or wet conditions. Use tha oil as Tom has said and refit to the car. If someone has a set of gauges, once it has been refitted and reconnected, then go to the local tip or recycling centre and see if you can buy an old but still operational sealed unit from a fridge or freezer, (Out here, they have thousands of the bloody things.) Wire it so it can run directly off a power lead. (Usually it is active to a terminal that connects to a wire leading into the cabinet that comes back via one marked "C" (control) and a neutral direct to a motor terminal. So N to motor, A to "C" an it should run.
Cut the discharge line (smaller pipe usually 3/16") and run through a small jar of oil so you can detect bubbles. Fit a 1/4" male flare fitting to the suction side by either getting union and cutting in half or by buying from your parts guys a 1/4" Schraeder connection they use for recharging refrigeration systems, and braze that onto the suction side which is usually 5/16"
That connected to your system for a fair amount of time, say an hour at a time, will evacuate most of the air from the sytstem and give you a vacuum. Going DIY, that should be good enough to rid the system of air and boil off the moisture. Often the fridge guys like to run their 2 stage pumps on them for a while just to be sure.
As a test for leaks, once the bubbles have stopped comiong through the pump, and it has run for a further few hours, take a reading on the gauge and then remove the gauge carefully trying t not allow any air to get back into the system as you remove them. Refit caps and use the car for a day or so and then carefully reconnect the gauges. The reading should be the same. If however, it has returned to zero, go looking for leaks. If it is just up fractionally, reconnect the pump and give it a few more hours as that can mean there's moisture in there and some of it has released.
When you're sure the vacuum is defintely holding, take it to whoever you have arranged and get it charged. Charging will take less than 15 minutes.
One word of advice on using a fridge compressor (sealed unit) as a vac pump; do not allow them to run for several hours without a rest as under nnormal operating conditions, the gas cycling through the system acts as a coolant on the internals and long stretches under vacuum can cause them to overheat.


Hope that is understandable.


Alan S
By the time you're old enough to know it all, you can't remember why you were learning.