Fuel injector cleaning

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AlanS
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Post by AlanS »

m_2975 wrote:Got an update on Injector pricing. 22Pounds (AU$55) each! That's a bargain. Even cheaper then having them cleaned.

Given the design of the BX engine, it's not really that easy for petrol to drip onto the exhaust. It's also quite unlikely that the heat under a BX bonnet is going to combust the petrol vapour.

We're not talking about a CX under the bonnet here.


Michael
Michael, I don't think you read my post correctly or if you did, it didn't sink in.
We HAVE HERE 2 BXs that have done exactly that and we're not talking petrol as a fluid, we're talking petrol as a vapour. One exploded to such an extent that the fire got back into the cabin.
What happens is that these "O" rings originally were the black rubber variety which hardened with age. They then leak as many do after about 5 years and this is often where the perol smell under the bonnet comes from.
Eventually, the O ring splits and then proceeds to spray raw fuel, by which time the entire under bonnet area is loading up with petrol vapour. The vapour is more volatile than raw petrol due to its mix with oxygen, the exhaust is almost red hot, way beyond the flash point of petrol vapour and as the car is slowing down usually at an intersection, the vapour ignites.
The ignition sounds like a dull thud as it's cushioned by the bonnet and with the engine still running, the flames are fed a diet of raw petrol and by the time the driver wakes up that there's flames starting to lick out the side of the bonnet, the entire underbonnet area is covered in petrol, this included the insulation on the firewall, underbonnet insulation as well as all the plastic insulation and spaghetti on the wiring harness. By the time the bonnet is lifted, (and hairs removed from the arms and hands in the process) the flames are jumping about 3 - 4 feet above the engine and if not extinguished within a minute or two are back into the vent ducts and heading back into the cabin.
That's the description from a couple of guys who've had them go up on them and is why we sometimes see the odd BX, Pug 205/405 and XM sitting all singed in Auction yards with "Statutory write off" stamped on the windscreen. It was also the description of the guy who used to own our series one 16V which suffered the same fate, so anybody working on theories and/or living in denial, does so at their own peril.

Alan S
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m_2975
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Post by m_2975 »

AlanS wrote:Michael, I don't think you read my post correctly or if you did, it didn't sink in.
It sank in thankyou. I'm not an idiot like you think. I heard you say vapour.
AlanS wrote:We HAVE HERE 2 BXs that have done exactly that and we're not talking petrol as a fluid, we're talking petrol as a vapour.
I HAVE HERE 5 BXs and have worked on hundreds of them over the past 10 years.

AlanS wrote:They then leak as many do after about 5 years and this is often where the perol smell under the bonnet comes from.
I don't know about your two cars but underbonnet petrol smell is very rare in EFI BX's. Yes there will be some cars that may have a cracked o ring but if you smell petrol under the bonnet any person with half a brain would find out why.
AlanS wrote:Eventually, the O ring splits and then proceeds to spray raw fuel, by which time the entire under bonnet area is loading up with petrol vapour.
If your cars are that badly maintained then you only get what was coming.
AlanS wrote:So anybody working on theories and/or living in denial, does so at their own peril.
Living in denial??? What's there to deny. They don't just ignite unless someone has either not put it (the injector) back properly or they haven't maintained the car.


I'm not saying that you are lying about such a thing happening as it's entirely possible, all I am saying is that what you describe is very uncommon and highly unlikely to a BX.
Just because it happened to you doesn't mean that it will happen to everyone else in the world.
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m_2975
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Post by m_2975 »

Way2go wrote:
m_2975 wrote:Got an update on Injector pricing. 22Pounds (AU$55) each! That's a bargain. Even cheaper then having them cleaned.
:? 4x22 = £88 . :?: Compared to £50 all in? Don’t agree. Not a hard choice to make in BXClub territory. :)
Sorry way2go, The injectors over here are 25pounds each to have cleaned. That's 100 pounds of cleaning and if I buy the injectors that's 88pounds for them new.
My Cars:
'93 BX 19GTi Sedan 5M
'89 BX 19TRI Estate 5M
'89 AX GT(With EFI) 2door 5M
In the Family:
'74 SM IE (Fully Restored) 5M
'90 BX 19TRI122 Sedan 4A
'02 Xantia Exclusive Sedan 4AA
'06 C5 2.2HDi Estate 6A

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docchevron
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Post by docchevron »

With all due respect Michael, Alan has years of experience with many more than the two cars he has right now.

BX under bonnet fires are well known, very well known.

Petrol vapour is considerably more flamable than petrol in liquid form, even more so when pressurised to near atomisation.

I think it's a bit harsh to suggest that anyone that has O ring failure deserves it as their car isn;t maintained..

Even garages dont check O rings when servicing cars, so you cant expect the average DIT man to check them, unless there is a problem, by which time it could be too late.

Petrol vapour will ignite with very little help from another source.

Alan's post was constructive, and reminds people to take the dangers of petrol seriousley. Think you were a bit harsh chap..
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Way2go
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Post by Way2go »

m_2975 wrote:
Way2go wrote:
m_2975 wrote:Got an update on Injector pricing. 22Pounds (AU$55) each! That's a bargain. Even cheaper then having them cleaned.
:? 4x22 = £88 . :?: Compared to £50 all in? Don’t agree. Not a hard choice to make in BXClub territory. :)
Sorry way2go, The injectors over here are 25pounds each to have cleaned. That's 100 pounds of cleaning and if I buy the injectors that's 88pounds for them new.
I think you need to reflect on the value of your posts Michael!

This thread was started by Mike E who provided useful information on an injector cleaning service that is available at reasonable cost in the home territory of BXClub.co.uk This is something that members here can take advantage of if they need or wish. Unfortunately your experiences of local purchase costs in the Oz market place go off on a tangent that is neither useful nor practicable to many as we cannot utilise that method of purchase without incurring significant extra costs.

However, £22 is a truly excellent price to replace an injector that has failed due to it’s coil or other total failure and in such circumstances even with the additional costs rmay be worthwhile going down the Oz route! Why not post the details and website info on a new thread relating to this rather than cloud Mike’s excellent info on cleaning?
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DavidRutherford
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Post by DavidRutherford »

Earlier, m_2975 wrote:Remember, if it ain't broke don't fix it!
Shortly thereafter, referring to injector O-rings and in a minor rant, m_2975 wrote:If your cars are that badly maintained then you only get what was coming.
So, do you change them, or wait until they are broken?

Injector O-rings are not generally a service item. The can and do split. I've heard of numerous instances of underbonnet fires caused by old/split & leaking O-rings.

The problem is that they usually leak when you're on the move, after the engine has warmed up. There's a good chance that you may not smell the petrol vapor, maybe due to other smells (In car air freshener, local cow shit, etc etc.) until it's too late, and viola: toasted BX. (or any other car with similar O-rings for that matter)

The point that was being made is that you said:
m_2975 wrote:it's not really that easy for petrol to drip onto the exhaust.
Which has no relevance.

Also:
m_2975 wrote:It's also quite unlikely that the heat under a BX bonnet is going to combust the petrol vapour.
Which is quite wrong. The flash point of petrol vapor is in fact -43 centigrade. All you need is a teeny tiny spark from ANYTHING (like a relay for instance) and you have serious problems. Alternatively, if you don't like the concept of a stray spark to start the fire, Petrol vapor's auto-ignition temperature is 246 cenigrade. Given that the exhaust can be a fair bit hotter than that, I'd say that's recipie for a fire.
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cavmad
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Post by cavmad »

Serious problems indeed David. I've witnessed what happens when what almost certainly the tiniest of tiny static charges ignited some solvent vapours and believe me it wasn't a nice place to be.

"Given the design of the BX engine, it's not really that easy for petrol to drip onto the exhaust. It's also quite unlikely that the heat under a BX bonnet is going to combust the petrol vapour"


Michael, with great respect that's a very rash statement mate. As others have stated petrol will very easily ignite and an exhaust manifold (for example) will be an 'ideal' source of ignition via the heat it puts out. Petrol in a fluid form isn't especially a danger (i.e it will burn out) but the fumes are highly volatile and not to be taken lightly.
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Look ! - a flying saucer !

Nope, its my neighbours BX bonnet :lol:
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Mike E (uk)
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Sources of ignition

Post by Mike E (uk) »

There are numerous sources of ignition under a BX bonnet,

the best is probably from the HT system. After all, thats what it is for!

Personally, I am amazed that there are not MORE underbonnet fires in all EFI cars.

Maybe it is the flow of air over the engine as the car moves along that saes them.

Several times I have had fuel squirting out in cars I have owned, and my cars are always well maintained. You can only smell a leak after it has started.

So I suggest watch out for fuel leaks guys! Especially as our cars are all
over 13 years old.
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Post by BX Bandit »

A useful post by Mike E, I may well give the cleaning company you suggested a go Mike. My local Lucas place quoted £35 + VAT each!! However, I do know that some of my o-rings are past there best. Can anyone suggest where to buy some?
Also, I have read that lubricating with a think silicone grease helps (with sealing I presume) but can ordinary - e.g. bearing grease be used instead?
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AlanS
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Post by AlanS »

Not wanting to perpetuate any ill feelings, but with all due respects, I have never heard of anyone being quoted or charged 25 pounds each to get cleaned.
25.00 GBP = 56.7683 AUD (as of this morning)
when as shown in the website I posted the link to they can be bought these days for $50 brand new; why would you bother?

Prices I've heard quoted from Sydney have been <$200 a set including flow tests etc but that was back in the days when new ones were $129 - $140 each. Might be a whole new ball game now prices have fallen.
It's not uncommon for people to buy their own ultrasonic cleaner or as I said for those not wanting to go that far, manually cleaned and we also have a set up for visually checking flow, not as accurate as the pros do it, but good enough for a road car.
We use the pro set up mainly when we're chasing time on a race car and 100ths of seconds per lap are involved.
As for
I HAVE HERE 5 BXs and have worked on hundreds of them over the past 10 years.
Didn't you have a 21st birthday a while back?

Must have been a very bright lad at school. :roll: :twisted:


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Mike E (uk)
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Post by Mike E (uk) »

BX Bandit- The guys who serviced my injectors provided a new set of O-rings with them, for block & fuel rail.

One less thing to worry about. :)
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m_2975
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Post by m_2975 »

Ok, now, let me sort this out. This has all turned into a mess on my part.

Firstly let me clarify for Way2Go and others here that my initial reply from Mike E (uk) started to compare how much the cleaning was over here (for some of the members on this side of the equator) as found by my enquiries as I too was looking to have them cleaned.

I then further posted that I had made enquiries as to how much it was for new ones. My finding that the injectors are now very cheap should be assumed to be a similar case in the UK.

Therefore the whole intention of my posts (and I admit that there should have been a few less and i'm sorry) was to highlight that cleaning, as Mike E (uk) found, is a good, cost effective option in the UK and his findings are very helpful and that there is also the option of new ones at a reasonable price should anyone have a problem with theirs and require new ones.



Now, getting back to the other outburst as I will call it.

Sorry to all those members who have read my reply to AlanS' reply on October 6. This is not the place to have such an outburst and therefore it won't happen again.

I wish to state that the cause of this outburst was not in any way to do with the facts of a BX catching fire. I do realise and admit that I was initially wrong with my conclusion that fires are caused "by lack of maintenance" and that "vapour" is not an immediate threat.
The cause of outburst was due to the insulting tone that was used and has been used in the past implying that I am either or both stupid and don't know what I am talking about.

It was also the un-necessary "down talking" from AlanS about it happening more than once to his knowledge is what really set this all off.

The reply from Mike E (uk) " So I suggest watch out for fuel leaks guys! Especially as our cars are all over 13 years old" was a very diplomatic and effective way of saying that it can happen to anyone, sure to not annoy anyone.


Yes I may be young, but that doesn't mean that I haven't spent virtually every day of my life in a Citroën workshop. I started working on them from the age of about 11 and even though that might not have been doing major things I have experienced a lot to do with them. I live and breathe the BX. I'm not saying that you (AlanS) haven't experenced a lot too, but we obviously have experienced different things and this may be to do with the cars that you have worked on being in a different environment up there to down here or having had different servicing practices over their life.

Professionally, perishable items such as O rings are an inspection item in our workshop as are fuel hoses, hydraulic pipe seals and any other item that could have a potentially fatal outcome. These items aren't checked every time a car is serviced but are inspected at every major service; usually meaning replacement if they are an extremely high risk. Normally an inspection if these items is simply to make sure that they aren't leaking, but like with a timing belt, if it breaks you are really in trouble and therefore replaced if in doubt.

Yes petrol and particularly its vapour can be ignited by the smallest of things. Yes the heat of an exhaust can exceed that needed to ignite petrol vapour. And yes it is a very dangerous thing to happen.

I'm sorry for being so harsh as I have no right to be.

Anyone who still has a problem should take this up with me in a PM as it should not be in public view to spoil everyone elses "BX Club" experience.

I hope that we can all move forward in a positive light from this experience.

Michael
My Cars:
'93 BX 19GTi Sedan 5M
'89 BX 19TRI Estate 5M
'89 AX GT(With EFI) 2door 5M
In the Family:
'74 SM IE (Fully Restored) 5M
'90 BX 19TRI122 Sedan 4A
'02 Xantia Exclusive Sedan 4AA
'06 C5 2.2HDi Estate 6A

AlanS
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Post by AlanS »

It was also the un-necessary "down talking" from AlanS about it happening more than once to his knowledge is what really set this all off.
Not really Michael.

I was talking practical experiences that you were telling everyone were impossible in theory; I don't lie. Not only that, but I think it's a bit bloody rich accusing me of talking down to you when you've pulled that stunt and when you've quoted outlandish figures and I've supplied a website with far cheaper prices quoted, to then totally ignore this and tell us how you can get them off a mate for twice the price shown on the website. Again, almost as though you considered I was talking bullshit!

As far as I'm concerned this is the end of it, but I'll close with a friendly reminder that I was on the Oz forums when you first appeared with the first BX you bought that had a dodgy clutch that then had a dodgy job done to replace it followed by a few other strange happenings and eventually you fell foul of a couple over there, hence your appearance on this side of the pond.
I'd suggest you lose the attitude that you have been there and done that as those of us who have had the experience can see through the fact that you no doubt get info from someone who has done it, no doubt Marcel and it is appreciated; just don't take credit for what you haven't yet achieved as I'm sure if you control the urge to big time yourself, you will eventually gain the respect you will earn in so doing.

Cheers,

Put it to bed now OK?


Alan S
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