Dead diesel fuel pump and biodiesel

[Mothman]

Hi Bob,

so, you just mix veggie[corn oil] with derv and it works OK?
Where do you get the stuff? A bit expensive from Sainsburys?

I am very interested in doing something similar. Could not put it into my pick up, its ECU would probably self terminate and send me a monster bill for its resurection.

I always thought that veggie oil, used or otherwise had to be specially treated in order for it to be used in motors. Live and learn i suppose.

Andy

[Linegeist]

I get my oil from Costco Andy - I never use 2nd hand though ..... I don't have the time for the filtering and detoxing the stuff.

As for using veggie in diesels, a basic rule of thumb is "The older the engine the more likely it is to run OK". The Diesel engine was originally designed (IIRC) to run on peanut oil, and there have been versions that run on coal dust ........... but if it's got an ECU, forget it!

Modern common rail diesels will self-destruct on a 50/50 vegoil mix, but older cars like ours run just fine on it.........it's only the relatively poor quality CAV pumps that create any kind of issue - and I only run it at 50/50 because of viscosity issues. There are folks who start on DERV, and then use preheaters to thin a supply of vegoil out before it gets to the injection pump and who then switch over to 100% vegoil once running (and swap back before they turn the engine off to flush it out of the pump ready for the next cold start)

I'm seriously thinking of swapping out my entire CAV HP side and replacing it with a Bosch setup - I just need to find out how straightforward this is.

[Mothman]

Wow Bob,

sounds great. Now, ime just a thicko who loves BXs, wouldnt know what type of fuel pump i have.

How do you tell? Sorry for the silly question but if never given it a thought before as the car works ergo the pump is still working and best left alone.

How much a litre are you paying for your corn oil [please dont divulge any sensitive secrets though].

Andy

[ritmo]

Thank you for your replies everyone, sorry to have confused. There hasn't been any SVO in the tank, only processed biodiesel, produced by: http://www.applefuels.co.uk/. The issue is that this bio diesel must be quite a strong solvent.

I first noticed problems with my stop solenoid. The bio ate the seal on the end of the solenoid and Betty no longer turned off.

Because of the sudden nature of the fault, I think it's most likely a seal has blown in the pump. So my question is really how I go about replacing the pump? Can I just get any old Bosch VE 4 cylinder pump and slap it on (plus bosch injectors maybe?). Or does it have to be a Bosch pump specific for the XUD7TE engine?

Thanks Sarah for your info on the Viton seals and mixing veg with bio, didn't know either of those facts!

Thanks again for replies.

Jake

[ritmo]

Well,

I have fixed her. But I also broke her. I mentioned that the biodiesel had worn out my stop solenoid seal. I had improvised one using o rings, but that didn't work. I guess my improvised seal caused a obstruction in the fuel line. I removed it and it's now working fine.

But I am still interested in switching to a bio and veg safe(ish) fuel system. If anyone has any ideas about swapping to a bosch injected system, please say.

Thanks for everyone's advise.

Jake (and Betty)

[electrokid]

But I am still interested in switching to a bio and veg safe(ish) fuel system. If anyone has any ideas about swapping to a bosch injected system, please say.

When I bought my first BX I did a lot of research into alternative fuels and the general consensus was that a Bosch pump would survive ok whereas a Lucas would have failed seals within 6 months to a year. The guy I bought the first BX from was running on 95% SVO and 5% unleaded - but I wouldn't go with anything he suggested because he also used to use veg oil to top up the LHM - it works ok but it rots the all the seals and you end up with a very big problem. That was before I knew better of course.

Jake - I'd try to find a BX being scrapped and take off the Bosch pump and the injectors and the injector pipes - you'll get much better access to the pump by taking the rad off. As long as the car you're taking it off is the same engine as the one in Betty it should work just fine.

[mat_fenwick]

I have heard of people even having problems (long term) with even Bosch pumps, there was a guy from this forum (Citrojim - who knows his pumps!) who did a long term veg oil immersion test. I'll see if I can find a link...

I'm not saying not to do it, but perhaps be cautious and prepared to re-seal the pump before fitting it to get the most life out of it.

[docchevron]

I did a good trade last winter replacing inj. pumps that veg oil had murdered. Nearly all were Lucas pumps, but three were Bosch. Wasn't just seal failure either, some were pretty much seized solid with what looked like grey / greeny concrete shite, and one was laregly just a collection of metal filings..

In all cases of long term veg use the injectors were of no use to man nor beast either.
Personally, I wouldn't touch the stuff.

[electrokid]

Personally, I wouldn't touch the stuff.

It's funny how ones perspective changes - when I bought the first BX - it had a Bosch pump so I was raring to go with oil drums etc and plans for bio / svo etc...

Now I care much more about the BX I have and want to preserve it as much as poss so I'm running it on 'top fuel' - BP Superstuff whatever it's called.

[CitroXim]

I did a good trade last winter replacing inj. pumps that veg oil had murdered. Nearly all were Lucas pumps, but three were Bosch. Wasn't just seal failure either, some were pretty much seized solid with what looked like grey / greeny concrete shite, and one was laregly just a collection of metal filings..

Been there Although I must say Bosch pumps do stand up a lot better to veg than a Lucas does. I've just stripped a pump Bosch that had run SVO for a long time and inside it was fine. Veg does harden the seals over time and make them fail. new seals will be Viton and largely veg. proof.

The pump I stripped was leaking over a long period and the veg had polymerised on the outside like an old chip pan. I literally had to chip and scrape it off

Inside though, perfect. Not a mark. That;s not my experience with Bio as I've seem pumps like you have Doc, that have ended up seized and full of horrible gummy gunk. Petrol cleans them up (eventually).

I've also been advised of a Bosch running WVO that gunked itself up so badly that the overboost LDA mechamism seized up. The person sorting it out dug lumps of WVO out of it.

So, it seems either run diesel or straight, fresh SVO and apart from running the risk of needing to reseal the pump, no harm done.

On the subject of substituting a Bosch for a Lucas, yes, easy. You'll need a fully mechanical VP20 Bosch from a pre 1996 donor. The AS3 fitted to later cars and invariably armoured although looking very similar, needs an ECU to control its timing. It will run but it's be fully retarded and have no automatic advance. You can make it work with an ECU but it's a lot of work for no real gain.

In addition to the pump, you'll need the injectors and the delivery pipes. Lucas items are not compatible at all. Also, you'll need the Bosch sprocket.

The pump cradle will carry either pump but you'll need to extract the flange studs and move them to their alternative positions. One set of holes is for the Lucas and the other for the Bosch.

Fuel lines and throttle cable is easy and if you have a waxstat, you can get that connected to the fast idle lever as well without too much hassle.

The VP20 most often seen if the donor was a 405TD or an early Xantia 1.9TD has an electrical cold advance control. It looks like a stop solenoid on the side. This can be wired to the glowplugs so that cold advance is on whilst the glowplugs are post heating.

This assumes you are converting a turbo. Although I've not tried it, a VP20 should work Ok on a non turbo engine but you may need to tweak it a bit. There is a non-turbo Bosch VP out there but they're a bit scarce. Most non turbos had Lucas pumps.

Timing can be done by ear. Time so the engine is just a tad "tinkly" on hot idle. It should rev very freely and the tinkles should immediate disappear as soon as it revs. If it knocks, it's too far advanced. It's a critical adjustment.

If I've not addressed everything, shout and I'll try harder..

I can do a photo gallery to aid pump identification if it will help when searching a donor...

Incidentally, nothing wrong with a Lucas. They work well. They just don't like veg...

[ritmo]

Jim,

This is great. Exactly what I'm looking for. All I need to know. As I posted earlier, it turns out the biodiesel hasn't killed the Lucas pump - yet.

I am still planning to swap to a Bosch, so I'll get looking for a suitable one on ebay. I then plan to overhaul it with viton seals and away we go. http://contrails.free.fr/engine_bosch_ve_en.php I found this if anyone is interested, pretty comprehensive dismantling of a Bosch VE!

Thanks for everyone's opinions on straight Veg. I don't have any intention of running SVO, at least not just now.

Jake

[Linegeist]

Just out of curiosity, what's the big dealbreaker in using the Lucas injectors with a Bosch pump?

Presumably a similar amount of fuel is delivered by both systems at any given point, and at similar spray breaking pressures .......... so why can't the pipes simply be adapted (if that's all that's needed)??

Just curious ......

[Brian]

Hi Bob,
A Bosch pump connected with lucas injectors will run, but like a pig.

The opening pressures are different.

Bosch are considerably higher than the Lucas ones.

[CitroXim]

Brian, spot on!

Also, on the Lucas, the firing order is different. If you use the Lucas delivery pipes on a Bosch, it won't run at all. A bit like getting the plug leads mixed up on a petrol car...

[docchevron]

the engine that I've just replaced in my TD has a Lucas pump, and was £2.5K worth of recon engine..
So good were the reconditioners it had Bosch injectors...
It did run, but they'd buggered about with the pump like you couldn't begin to believe to make it run.
Having fitted Lucas injectors I wasn't altogether surprised to note that it black smoked erm, ALOT... It took a while to sort that out..

Most N/A diesel BX's had the Bosch pump, most TD's had Lucas..
Both are good pumps, but the Bosch is far more tunable without needing a degree in microsurgery..

BTW, nice to see you back on here Jim!
You going to Stratty?