helping out

ellevie · Post by **ellevie** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:45 am

The trouble with trying to get to the bottom of this is that it is very subjective --- Phil's car might have been smoother than mine even before the new struts were installed. It would really require some objective measurements perhaps using accelerometers and data loggers over some form of prescribed driving and road surface conditions.

Aerodynamica · Post by **Aerodynamica** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:08 pm

I wonder if this is a 'familiarity breeds contempt' thing - I've heard the same BX ride disappointment many times and wonder if it's actually caused by us getting too used to it and becoming hypersensitive to the little bumps, vibes and sounds that do get through.

I must say my BX rides very well - is copes well with high frequency bumps better than my CX whereas the CX is breathtaking on bigger wheel displacements such as speed humps (truly as though they were not there) but the BX seems to run out of vertical movement.

Oddly, I'd say the BX I have (16 Mk1) and my old 14 Mk1 both have 'softer' springing than the CXes I've owned and my GSA but the CX and GSA both have longer travel and heavier bodies. I definitely feel the BX takes the sharp and high frequ stuff very well - however my BX has only done 50K miles from new - my first BX was the opposite: a 12 prev owner, intergalactic miles shagger and it did not ride as well as the present 16. The old 14 although on new spheres and tyres let lots of vibrations and bot holes through but i think it was resonance felt in the floor and steering due to worn bushings and steering knuckles - the bits of free play in the bushings rattling together through the floor and 'wheel.

Also: the idea that the ride is stiffer when a bit lower - I don't agree - if it's way too low i.e obviously too low then it will feel too hard as it'll be hitting the bump stops often but the actual LHM and gas pressure will be the same. And if it's riding too high it'll feel harder as it'll be topping out at times but the static pressure should be the same. My BX was running a little too high front and rear when I got it and the ride was a little rubbish at times but ir really improved when it was reset to the factory spec heights (car also looked a bit better) But i think it was due to the suspension topping out when it had previously been running a little high. But if it's just running a little lower then there's going to be nothing different - it'll just be closer to the bump stops but on the GTi the spheres were uprated to prevent bottom out anyway?

Adding an extra notch in the height lever gate: to lower it a bit - it would work I suppose if you wanted a temporary lowered position but in any position apart from normal height, the lever ends of the control rods front and rear are applying a force to the height corrector linkages and so they do not move freely making the corrector response vague and causing the height to wander up above intermediate or below the new notch below normal.

I also wonder if this harshness some of you are getting is caused by the Mk2 cars' rubber arm bushings. I'd imagine these would be better for absorbing the high freq stuff but also I'd think they'd allow more flex and I can't help but think that this allows the front struts to suffer more sideways forces that the roller bearing - equipped Mk1 would not have. Perhaps with worn struts this flex is even greater and causes the flex to generate dynamic friction in the struts.

My Mk1 has evidence of sticky front struts however, the front bearings of the suspension are very good and the ride is smooth and quiet up front.

It's funny you should say the GSA as having such good ride as my GSA has the worst of all my Citroens!

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:40 pm

Hello Graeme,

Aerodynamica wrote: Also: the idea that the ride is stiffer when a bit lower - I don't agree - if it's way too low i.e obviously too low then it will feel too hard as it'll be hitting the bump stops often but the actual LHM and gas pressure will be the same. And if it's riding too high it'll feel harder as it'll be topping out at times but the static pressure should be the same. My BX was running a little too high front and rear when I got it and the ride was a little rubbish at times but ir really improved when it was reset to the factory spec heights (car also looked a bit better) But i think it was due to the suspension topping out when it had previously been running a little high. But if it's just running a little lower then there's going to be nothing different - it'll just be closer to the bump stops but on the GTi the spheres were uprated to prevent bottom out anyway?

Indeed, due to the geometry of the macpherson strut increasing height increases stiffness and decreasing height makes things softer. Obviously this is less noticable if you only lower a touch, but something which should be considered. This is why 'lowering kits' favoured by the barry boy merchants have such stiff springs in order to counter this.

Aerodynamica wrote: It's funny you should say the GSA as having such good ride as my GSA has the worst of all my Citroens!

That's interesting, I always found my GSA to have an exemplary ride; far superior to the (series 2) CX Safari my father used to have, but then the GSA hasn't done many miles, and was probably in excellent order with regard to balljoints bearings and hydraulics.

It has to be said to that what is considered a good ride is subjective, and that even the best suspension will have compromise in some areas...

Philip Chidlow · Post by **Philip Chidlow** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:47 pm

I have to say my '74 GSX had a superbly supple ride. The BX isn't bad, especially now but you're possibly right - familiarity breeds etc.

I think driving around in other 1990 vintage cars with their design roots back in 1982 or before might illustrate precisely how good the BX actually is.

maxgreenwood · Post by **maxgreenwood** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:25 pm

Since i changed the old, very dirty LHM in mine for hydraflush, and back to LHM after 2500 miles, brakes bled etc my car has always displayed the same characteristic.. It is supremley smooth and floaty when first driven after having been stood overnight in normal, then after 10-15mins it gets a little crashy, not badly so, quite supple, but definately different from that initial smoothness. Having said that since myself and Citroen 7 put on some struts he had that were known to be good, although at times creaky and groany, the ride is better for longer periods of time and seems to be getting better, but it is infuriatingly intermittent. The ride height stays normal and when we checked, the height correctors and linkages seemed to be working smoothly and correctly. My ex-citroen mechanic uncle says he has experienced this and reckons the height corrector(s) could be gunged up, which would make sense with the old LHM and flushing with Hydraflush probably dislodging stuff and it getting trapped around the small holes in the height correctors. However, after I have noticed the ride deterioating and parking up, pushing down on the front, it is (sometimes

) well seized and takes alot of force to push through the seized-ness, which makes me think these struts maybe simiilar to my old ones. My first port of call when i get round to it hopefully in the next week or so is maybe swapping those struts for the ones off the 80000 miler 17TGD i have to see if this cures that seizing up. But then i am wondering why its so intermittent with these current struts. Citaerobics sometimes cures it temporarily but most times not. I have a new front height corrector so could try that although without cutting the pipes going into it and replacing them its pretty impossible to get the thing off.

So struts, then maybe the garage for the height corrector or maybe fitting it myself with some new pipe and the tool my uncle has offered to lend me if i'm feeling brave.

If the ride wasn't so sublime for those first 15 minutes I probably would be quite satisfied with the ride as its not that bad, but not i don't think quite what it should be.

I'd love a good GS!

but i love the handling and power of mine so i'd love to get it working factory spec as its pretty tidy all round.

Last night i drove up to see this fabulous CX prestige which lives in north Dublin, an absolute stunner 1979 2400 used to be a C-matic converted to 5 speed manual, had pretty much every conceivable bit of work done on it and no rust, never goes out in the wet. I was salivating. What a beast:

http://s255.photobucket.com/albums/hh149/walshbr/

Post by **mat_fenwick** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:38 pm

Ooooh, that CX is nice - I love the interior!

Actually I prefer the conventional dials, but tht's only a minor point.

It was mentioned on another thread recently about swapping the struts left to right as the loading will be different, and hence any wear will be less noticeable. So even if you do use the ones from your TGD, it might be an idea to swap them to hopefully get a double benefit.

maxgreenwood · Post by **maxgreenwood** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:42 pm

thanks matt, i'll try that - when swapping my previous ones we did the whole sphere mount as well, which means they can only go on the same way round? do you undo the bolt at the top of the strut shaft?

Post by **mat_fenwick** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:46 pm

That's how I've done it, just hold the strut itself with a 6(?)mm allen key to stop it rotating when you undo the big nut. It was a few years ago I did it last...

maxgreenwood · Post by **maxgreenwood** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:52 pm

i'll try it and report back...

yeah the interior on that CX is lovely. The seats are really low down in the back so your knees are up quite high, but its like your own little living room in there, so much room! I didn't get chance to go out in it but the offer is there for the future so i think i might be dropping in again! The guy had also been working that day on an old volvo 3 dr, 60s or 70s not sure which model 2 litre, another lovely car.

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:54 pm

How come you do it that way, surely easier to just undo the 3 small bolts, unscrew the sphere & pull off the plastic top cap after pulling the hydraulic pipe out of the top?

Way2go · Post by **Way2go** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:08 am

Why mess with the mount when you only want to change the strut?
One nut at the top, one pinch bolt at the bottom and slide the strut out.

Post by **mat_fenwick** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:31 am

I must admit I can't say which way is the 'correct' way, but it would seem slighlty easier...don't need to take off the sphere or HP pipe. OK, neither are difficult tasks, but it all helps.

Geoffrey Gould · Post by **Geoffrey Gould** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:49 am

Hi seems a lot of fuss. Allen key in hole undo nut turn allen key 180 degrees do up nut. Both sides 10 mins. Try it.
G.

Way2go · Post by **Way2go** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:42 pm

Geoffrey Gould wrote:Hi seems a lot of fuss. Allen key in hole undo nut turn allen key 180 degrees do up nut. Both sides 10 mins. Try it.
G.

I get what you mean Geoff but surely any wear ridges will be in the barrel and not the piston so this would not be addressed.

Geoffrey Gould · Post by **Geoffrey Gould** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:53 pm

Ah it would seem so but think about it, if you change the struts from one side to another then in effect, because they will only fit one way because of the slot in the hub, then all you have done is rotate them 180 degrees.The bottom of the piston is located by plastic discs which slide up and down the barrel of the strut (from memory!!) and the top bearing is a plain bronze bush with 2 felt rings and a seal, because there is no positive lubrication then this bush is usually dry. There is a hole up through the length of the piston and a groove with a tiny ptfe seal which is the only thing to stop the LHM from leaking past the inner piston rod. Most of the wear seems to be with the piston and bush, bush dry and piston scored etc.
Cheers.
Geoff.