Dead diesel fuel pump and biodiesel

[Linegeist]

Thanks for that gents! That's another pitfall I'm not going to fall into thanks to the BX gestalt.

Much appreciated!

[xac]

As the previous owner of the pump Jim mentioned, I can give you some history.
Ran it pretty much 100% SVO (mostly KTC soy oil from Costco, unless Tesco had rapeseed on offer), except if there was ice on the road (a bit of v-power derv would be added) or I needed to refuel away from the shops for 4 years, about 60K miles.

The pump is 13 years old, so the original seals would have been hardened due to age and not sealing perfectly anyway.
Running on derv this wouldn't be a problem, if it leaked passed the seals it would just make a slight mess on the outside of the pump, but with SVO when it cools and is left cold for a few days, it polymerises and expands, this then opens the seals more, hence the eventual leaking.
Jim fitted a replacement pump which he'd renewed the seals on, so I'm confident that it will remain dry as a bone for the foreseable future.
So if you're going to swap pumps, service the replacement one before you fit it and swap out the seals.

Personally I wouldn't let WVO or biodeisel anywhere near my car, I've read reports of how corrosive bio can be.

[docchevron]

Personally I wouldn't let WVO or biodeisel anywhere near my car, I've read reports of how corrosive bio can be.

Agreed.
The company have been experimenting for years with various buses.
We've had everythign from gas powered, rape seed, WVO, "proper" bio and used chip fat.
The "chipper" bus, we still have, and it's already eaten several sets f injectors and a pump (also a Bosch)..

The only engine we ever got running well and reliably was a Bristol VR with a Gardner engine..
The pump on that is lubed by the engine oil and they NEVER fail.
Other than changing injectors every two years it did it no harm at all..

[sarahjaneking]

stop solenoids are vastly cheaper from here http://www.thetoolboxshop.com/0-129-06- ... 4476-p.asp than from GSF

[electrokid]

The pump on that is lubed by the engine oil and they NEVER fail.

So... modify a Bosch to be lubricated the engine oil - would that be easy / difficult / impossible ?

[CitroXim]

So... modify a Bosch to be lubricated the engine oil - would that be easy / difficult / impossible ?

Ahh, sadly the latter due to how the pump is constructed and works

Doc is referring to the Bosch PE, which is an in-line pump and is effectively a set of individual jerk pumps (like in single cylinder industrial diesels) driven from a oil lubricated camshaft in the sump of the pump. The PE pump looks like a baby engine at first glance.

Early diesel cars, especially the Mercs, used this type of pump. Not sure if once can be fitted to an XUD though...

[scarecrow]

I've only ever seen one Gardener engine - it was on a boat and it was like a work of art.

Doc, hasn't your bus company tried out hydrogen fuel cells? I know a couple of Midland buses were equipped with them...

[electrokid]

Ahh, sadly the latter due to how the pump is constructed and works

I thought it would be - but if you don't ask etc. Running from an engine driven cam sounds far too sensible Thanks for the info.

[MULLEY]

Interesting thought regarding the corrosive properties of bio-diesel, seeing as there is a minimum of 5% of it in standard diesel, which i've been led to believe is being increased to a higher level for eco purposes, i wonder how many pumps will fail/start leaking by just using fuel at the pump.

I'm not sure that i'd personally call bio corrosive, but having used it with varying levels of success on my txd, i'm not a fan tbh, but it certainly is a good detergent as it cleaned out the carbon build up in the engine as the fuel filter went a dark grey. Didn't notice any difference in how the engine performed though, perhaps with only 71bhp it doesn't

[docchevron]

I've only ever seen one Gardener engine - it was on a boat and it was like a work of art.

Doc, hasn't your bus company tried out hydrogen fuel cells? I know a couple of Midland buses were equipped with them...

Elsewhere in Group, most likely, not down here though...
Diesel is still considered modern in the south!

[CitroXim]

Interesting thought regarding the corrosive properties of bio-diesel, seeing as there is a minimum of 5% of it in standard diesel, which i've been led to believe is being increased to a higher level for eco purposes, i wonder how many pumps will fail/start leaking by just using fuel at the pump.

Well, if and when they leak, new Viton seals will fix it for good and I believe all new seals are now made of Viton for the very reason of bio compatibility.

More worrying is the increasing use of (bio) ethanol in petrol. The amount is slowly increasing like bio in diesel as, although lovely and toxic, it is a little less toxic than the alternatives such as the benzine family (toluene and so on) and EDTA. Ethanol has a lovely high octane number and is a great and cheap additive for the making of the super Carlos Fandango petrol now being sold.

Ethanol is a very aggressive substance and fuel systems much over 10 years old will start to suffer as it can eat aluminium and wreck seals. Watch your carb turn to powder

The other problem for petrol cars running on increasing amounts of ethanol is the need to adjust the air:fuel mixture ratio. Most modern injection ECUs can cope to a point but older ones and carbs are going to be running a bit lean.

The removal of lead from petrol might have been good for any number of reasons but as usual, one set of problems is replaced by another.

Speaking of leaded petrol, did you know the inventor of TEL (Tetryl Ethyl Lead), one Thomas Midgeley, was also the inventor of CFCs!

It is said he alone did more environmental damage with his two inventions than the whole of the human race before or since. Poor bugger and he was hailed as a hero at the time

[BX Bandit]

Can I swap its Lucas pump with a Bosch one?
Can I use a bosch pump that\'s meant for a XUD9 turbo as these are much easier to find? ie from a 306, xantia, etc?
Can you recommend a good pump to go for?
Does anyone know where I can get hold of veg resistant seals (Viton I heard are good) so I can recondition any pump I do get?
Any other veg recommendations for the fuel line?

Thanks in advance.

Jake

Hi Jake,
As has been said, yes a Bosch can replace the Lucas, along with the pipes and injectors.
A 1.7TD Bosch will be quite hard to find, where as a 1.9TD Bosch will be much more common - which is what you were asking I think. The answer is yes, a 1.9 TD Bosch will fit and work, so long as you match with 1.9TD injectors. The 1.7TD injectors work at 130 bar, where as the 1.9TD works at 175 bar; so better atomisation, small torque/power increase and better economy, a worthwhile change.
I lost all the settings when I refurbed the pump and it\'s taken me ages to get it back to decent delivery/starting/economy/non-smoky. From what I have learned, I rekon the 1.9TD pump is working at it\'s lower limits in injecting into a 1.7 TD. i.e. There is only a small envelope of adjustment in getting good starting, without being smoky. This *may* be something to consider when using the alternatives to Derv.
I only mention the smoke thing as obviously it\'s tested in MOT and if you\'re really smoky you could get pulled (unlikely but you never know, esp in London!!??)

[Defender110]

I've only ever seen one Gardener engine - it was on a boat and it was like a work of art.

I was once driving an old Foden Octopus Wrecker Truck fittedwith a Gardener 180 whilst towing another Foden 8 wheel brick wagon gone midnight, the fuel governors jammed (or became disconnected can't remember now) and the engine went up past it's maximum revs with me jammed in gear carearing down the road, It was pre power steering with sh1t brakes, no suspension to speak of and I only managed to get it out of gear as I crashed to a halt on a roundabout that I was unable to get round with the engine still flat out bellowing smoke out like a steam loco. We only finally managed to stop the engine by manually pulling the fuel primer leavers on the pump and I think some decompression leavers on the head.
It was an absolutely terrifying experience, the noise was horrendous and I survived with a couple of cracked ribs but we were so lucky it happened to be after midnight so nobody else was hurt althought we woke the whole village of Tottington and destroyed their prize roundabout flower bed. Not a recommended experience

[Linegeist]

I crashed to a halt on a roundabout that I was unable to get round with the engine still flat out bellowing smoke out like a steam loco. We only finally managed to stop the engine by manually pulling the fuel primer leavers on the pump and I think some decompression leavers on the head.
It was an absolutely terrifying experience, the noise was horrendous and I survived with a couple of cracked ribs but we were so lucky it happened to be after midnight so nobody else was hurt althought we woke the whole village of Tottington and destroyed their prize roundabout flower bead. Not a recommended experience

That sounds quite military Kev '! Superbly described!!!

[electrokid]

Superbly described indeed and what an experience !

Only things that have happened to me are comparatively wimpish - I had the throttle jam fully open in South London on a 1 litre Metro - i found a parking space within a few yards and reversed into it. A vacuum pipe had fallen off and jammed the cable mechanism. It seemed to have bent the camshaft - didn't think that was possible but after fitting another head for the expected bent valves I found it wouldn't run unless the valve clearances were enormous.

And a throttle stick on a 2.8 granny - not quite at full throttle but enough to raise the hairs on the back of my neck - fortunately it unstuck itself quickly - but I lubricated the cable very promptly !