A couple of minor TD probs!

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:53 pm

Hi guys,

Monica, my 93 17TXD Turbo, has developed a couple of irritating faults recently, that I thought I might share with some of you Turbodiesel wizards on here......

1] Pain in the a$$ to fire up first thing in a morning. Turns over slowly at first, then faster and faster until she eventually fires up, with an accompanying huge cloud of smoke! For the rest of the day, every start is bang on the button, first turn of the key.
My thought is that after fitting new front to rear fuel pipes last year, I have somehow created an air leak into the feed side (probably at that fiddly joint ehere the pipe joins the rubber pipe to go up the tank! That was a right swine to get on!!
Anything else I could consider??

2] She runs smooth as silk, and smoke-free, all day long, EXCEPT when I stick my clog down and the turbo kicks in at around 2400 rpm. Then I leave a pretty impressive smokescreen behind me, until I ease off the boost again! It's great for keeping tailgaters away, but doesn't look too cool!

Performance is fine right across the range, and she idles smooth as a virgin's inner thigh.

Now I am a complete novice when it comes to any kind of diesel or turbo tuning, so if these symptoms ring a bell with anyone, I'd be grateful for some kind of step-by-step detailed walkthrough of what I could do (preferably with pics, diagrams, or suchlike!).

Monica has a nice chip-fat burning Bosch pump fitted, and her glowplugs and relay are all in good nick.

Muchas gracias for any guidance forthcoming....

Cheers,

Dave & Monica

Post by **docchevron** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:48 am

Erm, you're not running chip fat at the mo are you????

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:07 am

Nah mate!!
Ain't got a fuel heater fitted, so my chip-oil stock is growing under the stairs until this bloody weather warms up a good bit!!

In the middle of Summer I can get as high as 80:20 chip-oil;diesel, but I haven't had anything in Monica since mid-November except proper diseasel.

Maybe she's suffering chip-oil withdrawal??

DavidRutherford · Post by **DavidRutherford** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:26 am

I suspect it's a combination of a dead glowplug or two, and worn injectors.

Have the intercooler off, and the connecting rail from the glowplugs. Now test each glowplug between the stud and the block (or the batter -ve) should be around-about an ohm or less. Anything over 5 ohms and they're goosed.

The injectors can be pressure and flow tested fairly easily (I made a tester myself) but they do need to be removed from the head to do that.

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:54 am

Thanks David. The glowplugs are a new set fitted in September, but I do still have the old ones, if a mix 'n match job is needed! I'll be a bit annoyed if it is a plug, since the ones I took out had been in since new (allegedly!)and had done 14 years and 127k miles!
The injector suggestion maybe right, especially as there may be a connection to me running used chip-oil in her for a good proportion of the past 2 years! Perhaps some crud has been deposited in the inner workings?
Would it be worth me shoving a bottle of that "injector cleaning" stuff that my local accessory shop sells for about £2-95?? It looks green!!!

I presume that your suggestions (combined) would cover both my problems, considering that clouds of smoke are involved in both. I'm assuming that the smoke is a result of some kind of incomplete combustion?
I had thought that worn valve guides could be allowing engine oil to seep into the cylinders overnight, causing the poor starting first-time only. Is that still a posibility?
Is there any adjustment / tweaking possible on the turbo itself, or would that not be recommended? (Not too sure what type it is, but I suspect a Garrett(sp?))

I don't fancy buggering about removing injectors in this bloody snow....it can wait for a fww days!!

Cheers,
Dave

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:38 pm

mountainmanUK wrote: I had thought that worn valve guides could be allowing engine oil to seep into the cylinders overnight, causing the poor starting first-time only. Is that still a posibility?
Is there any adjustment / tweaking possible on the turbo itself, or would that not be recommended? (Not too sure what type it is, but I suspect a Garrett(sp?))

I think valve guide wear is unlikely, and would agree that it sounds as if your injectors could use a rebuild.

As regards the smoke on driving, how is your air filter? This makes a big difference to smoke production if it is dirty. If you don't know when it was last changed definatley invest in a new one.

You don't want to be touching the turbo to mess with the boost, but you *could* turn down the on-boost fuelling at the pump, but this would reduce power and be treating the symptoms rather than the cause...

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:04 pm

As regards the smoke on driving, how is your air filter?

Air Filter's nice and clean. I only fitted it new at the back-end of last year. Also, the engine oil's pretty clean too, as I'm pretty religeous about changing it, and filter, every 6 mths or 4000 miles (whichever comes first!).

Am I correct in thinking that there is a water "trap" somewhere near the diesel filter? Where does this beast reside, and how best to check it out?

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:15 pm

mountainmanUK wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that there is a water "trap" somewhere near the diesel filter? Where does this beast reside, and how best to check it out?

It depends on the age of your steed; it will either have the diesel filter in a plastic casing on top of the thermostat housing with a rubber bulb on the fuel pipe to facilitate bleeding or a seperate canister device with integral priming button next to the LHM reservoir.

In the case of the former there is a screw-tap thingy at the bottom of the filter housing (which will have a plastic pipe heading to ground attached unless it has dropped off), and by opening this and squeezing the bulb water will be evacuated.

For the latter the screw is located on the bottom of the canister-thingy, and again is to be opened and the primer button pumped.

It should not be necessary to bleed the system following this, just squeeze the bulb/press primer button until it is hard then start engine.

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:03 pm

Thanks Jonathan! Mine is the former, although the tap thingy doesn't look ver taplike! In fact it looks like something is broken off!!!
I'll have a play with it in the morning, in daylight!!

Cheers

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:24 pm

mountainmanUK wrote:Thanks Jonathan! Mine is the former, although the tap thingy doesn't look ver taplike! In fact it looks like something is broken off!!!
I'll have a play with it in the morning, in daylight!!

Cheers

No worries, the snapped off look is prob'ly just where the drain-hose thing was located before it fell off to make it's break for freedom in a bid to start a new life with all the other random detritus to be found lying in the road...

Geoffrey Gould · Post by **Geoffrey Gould** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:36 pm

Hello something I would be concerned about would be the fact that it turns over slowly to start off with, so starting from the begining sort of .
Are the battery terminal clamps the original lead ones, if they are then they can be a problem with causing a voltage drop which will slow up the starting, replace them with some proper screw ( to clamp the cable.) type. The earth cables to the body and gearbox need checking to be sure of a good contact. Vaseline will slow up corrosion. The starter connections also.
Can you check the battery voltage first thing of the morning?
Please let us know what you find.
All the best.
Geoff.

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:41 pm

Will do, Geoff!
Thanks for the suggestions!

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:16 pm

Latest update!

Came to the car first thing this morning (Air temp = -1 C), checked the battery voltage and found it to be 12.4V (I'm assuming that this is a tad low, as my other battery which I use for self-jumping reads around 12.7V.

Gave it 2 blasts on the heater plugs (full blasts including the 8-10 seconds after the light goes out, until the relay clicks) before attempting to start it. As is normal this winter, the starter cranks over the engine gradually faster and faster, for around 15-20 seconds, when she either grumpily fires up, or, more likely on an icy morning, the starter begins to slow, with occasional 'clicks' that warn me of imminent 'flatitude'!!
As I am now pretty accustomed to this procedure, I carry a fully-charged spare batter in the rear passenger footwell, together with a set of jumpleads! I pop the bonnet catch, connect up the additional battery with jumpleads, and retry starting. Without fail, the engine cranks over considerably faster than on one battery, and fires up after about 15 seconds with a huge cloud of grey smoke!! Additional battery disconnected and back in car, deice and drive off!

From there on, everything remains fine throughout the day, with the normal battery still fitted (and being recharged by the alternator). Every start is good within the first couple of seconds of turning the key, with no smoke. Only after leaving the car parked up overnight will the starting problems recur.

Does that give you any further info to work on, Geoff et al?

(As an addition to this, you might be thinking "why not swap the battery for the backup one?". I tried that, as the backup is an original Citroen battery. Same thing happens, only worse, and the Citroen battery doesn't hold a charge for more than a few days, which was the reason I originally swapped it for a new one 18 months ago.)

Cheers for your continued ponderings on the matter!

Dave

Post by **Tim Leech** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:50 pm

I had a similar problem with my GT (althought thats a petrol) once jump started it would be fine all day but leave it over night and it was very reluctant to start. I fitted a new heavy duty battery and all was well.

Dave is it worth swopping the batteries you have over?

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:17 pm

Hi Tim!

I covered that idea in the last paragraph of my post, mate;-)

(As an addition to this, you might be thinking "why not swap the battery for the backup one?". I tried that, as the backup is an original Citroen battery. Same thing happens, only worse, and the Citroen battery doesn't hold a charge for more than a few days, which was the reason I originally swapped it for a new one 18 months ago.)

Nice thought!!!!