Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

BX Tech talk
Post Reply
User avatar
David
BXpert
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Manchester
x 47

Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David »

Hi all,

I have got myself a gearbox, diff & transfer box out of a Peugeot 405 MI16 & have a few questions before I try putting them on my BX.

Firstly is the gearing in the 405 diff/ transfer box the same as a BX GTi or does it have a higher or lower ratio? (could I use the bx diff & Peugeot transfer box together for instance).

Will the internal gearing inside the 405 gearbox be the same as a BX GTi 8V or will it be higher for the 16V engine? (if so I might steal the 5th). I'm intending on using my gearbox as it was rebuilt, but I know I will have to swap the transfer box drive splines over.

Also the Peugeot transfer box doesn't have a diff lock attachment, does it just use limited slip diffs? & will the rear diff be limited slip as well? (the guy I got them off says so, But I'm making sure).

Also looking at the splines they don't look that much bigger than the BX ones (but until I pull my car apart again I have nothing to compare against), Is the size difference in them only marginal?
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

2016 Ford Focus Zetec - Daily Driver. (Absolute bone shaker).
User avatar
JayW
1K Away
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: Now listen here you mullet...
x 13

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by JayW »

Can't help with much of that i'm afraid. But, i do know that the early 405's had a cable operated difflock and the laters were torsen, like the BX. NONE of them have LSD's in the typical sense.
Last edited by JayW on Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
I have zero patience for your tedium.
User avatar
David
BXpert
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Manchester
x 47

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David »

Thanks for the reply,

It was my understanding that torsen & LSD's were really the same thing. Is that not so?
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

2016 Ford Focus Zetec - Daily Driver. (Absolute bone shaker).
User avatar
Way2go
Over 2k
Posts: 7279
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:15 pm
Location: RCoBerkshire
x 2

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by Way2go »

AFAIK the transfer box (centre differential) on both the BX and the 405 is not Torsen but the rear differential is. The name Torsen is a contraction of 'torque sensing' and therefore is a type of LSD.
1991 BX19GTi Auto
User avatar
JayW
1K Away
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: Now listen here you mullet...
x 13

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by JayW »

Aaaah, i was under the impression that it was the centre diff that was torsen, not the rear.

I'm sure someone will be along soon with an epic write up to clear it upfor you!
I have zero patience for your tedium.
User avatar
citsncycles
Over 2k
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: Dursley, Gloucestershire

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by citsncycles »

Not sure about the Peugeot, but as mentioned the BX centre diff is a conventional one with lock. The rear diff can be LSD or Torsen depending on whether the vehicle has ABS fitted. From what I can remember from reading the technical bulletins, the LSD uses friction plates to limit the amount of slippage on the wheel with less traction, and something in the way it works can interfere with the ABS system. The Torsen system uses some sort of additional gearing system in the diff which gets around the ABS issue. I imagine the Torsen diff will fit on any 4x4, but wasn't originally due to cost.
Mike Sims
BX 19RD Estate Mk1 - Timex!
BX 4X4 Estate - Oh god, I've done it again!
BX 17RD MK1 - it called to me!
BX14 TGE, - SOLD
XM Turbo SD,GS Club Estate,Visa 17D Leader,HY Pickup,Dyane Nomad,Dyane 6,2CV AZL,Falcon S,Trabant P50,3x Land Rovers (88" series 1,109" series 2a FFR,series 2a Marshall ambulance),DKW F7, Lambretta LD150 x 1.5,Mobylette SP93,Ural Cossack,Ural M63,CZ 250 Sport,Honda Varadero 125,lots of bicycles & tricycles including (but not only) Sunbeams,Higgins & Bates!
User avatar
David
BXpert
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Manchester
x 47

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David »

Thanks for the replies.

I have got the diff off my car, I'll have to check if the gearing is the same in both. Externally they both look identical, & looking through the drive shaft holes they look the same, Will the Peugeot one be Torsen & mine be a open diff? (I know mine doesn't drive on both wheels; if one comes off the ground for instance, it just spins that one).

Also just to mention the original BX GTi 4x4 I got my parts off had ABS, & it looks like the Peugeot these parts came off did as well (looking at the drive shafts).

Does anyone know anything in regards to my other queries above?
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

2016 Ford Focus Zetec - Daily Driver. (Absolute bone shaker).
User avatar
mat_fenwick
Moderator
Posts: 7326
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: North Wales
x 19

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by mat_fenwick »

citsncycles wrote:Not sure about the Peugeot, but as mentioned the BX centre diff is a conventional one with lock. The rear diff can be LSD or Torsen depending on whether the vehicle has ABS fitted. From what I can remember from reading the technical bulletins, the LSD uses friction plates to limit the amount of slippage on the wheel with less traction, and something in the way it works can interfere with the ABS system. The Torsen system uses some sort of additional gearing system in the diff which gets around the ABS issue. I imagine the Torsen diff will fit on any 4x4, but wasn't originally due to cost.
This is correct, and was actually an option on the 4x4 estate. Why David's rear diff appears to be open is a mystery, but I know that friction type LSDs can be sensitive to the oil used, so wonder if there is a problem internally due to oil used in the past. I can't see how a Torsen type would ail without audible symptoms!

The centre diff used on the Mi16x4 is a viscous coupling rather than a manually lockable type, which is another type of limited slip differential! I did look into all this in quite a bit of detail around 10 years ago when I actually had the 405 transmission and was considering putting it in my BX (an impending house move put paid to that) but I can't remember much more. I *think* the rear diff was stolen from the 505, but I can't be sure. That may give more options when searching, but ratios are obviously important...
Image

1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
User avatar
David
BXpert
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Manchester
x 47

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David »

After having a mess around with the parts I can answer some of my questions, but some still remain.

The gearing in the diff is the same; so I assume the gearing in the transfer box should also be the same.

The gears in the 16V gearbox are exactly the same as the 8v gearbox (5th is anyway, I didn't pull any more apart).

I haven't pulled my transfer box out yet so I don't know how much bigger the splines are in comparison.

Just to mention on what Matt said; the diff off my car was quiet when it drove, But it has a plate saying "torsen" on the back, yet it drove like a open diff, So what would be going on here?

Also I have been looking through a Peugeot 4x4 manual & it says that some 405's had diff locks on the rear axle. Were any BX's made with diff locks on the rear axle or is this something else Peugeot kept to themselves?

Also Which type of transfer box would be best (disregarding the crap splines in the Citroen one), in regards to getting the car out of a bog for instance?
The Peugeot one with a viscous coupling?, or the Citroen one with the center diff lock? (if anyone has any idea that is).
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

2016 Ford Focus Zetec - Daily Driver. (Absolute bone shaker).
User avatar
David
BXpert
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Manchester
x 47

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David »

I have pulled the gearbox out of my BX & I can now say the drive splines are exactly the same! The splines out of the Peugeot gearbox slot perfectly in to my transfer box.

So, now I don't know whether to put the Peugeot transfer box in or keep mine after attempting to fix the oil leak again.

I'm sure the Peugeot 405 MI16 ones are supposed to be stronger. Or so I have read...
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

2016 Ford Focus Zetec - Daily Driver. (Absolute bone shaker).
User avatar
citsncycles
Over 2k
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: Dursley, Gloucestershire

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by citsncycles »

As far as I know, the BX never got a locking rear diff, just the centre one.

I wonder if the viscous coupling could be what makes the Peugeot system stronger, as it may help absorb driveline shocks a bit.

On of the theories about why the splines fail is that it's due to wear in a bearing allowing one of the shafts to move (I forget which at the moment). It could be that the Peugeot system has a better bearing set up.
Mike Sims
BX 19RD Estate Mk1 - Timex!
BX 4X4 Estate - Oh god, I've done it again!
BX 17RD MK1 - it called to me!
BX14 TGE, - SOLD
XM Turbo SD,GS Club Estate,Visa 17D Leader,HY Pickup,Dyane Nomad,Dyane 6,2CV AZL,Falcon S,Trabant P50,3x Land Rovers (88" series 1,109" series 2a FFR,series 2a Marshall ambulance),DKW F7, Lambretta LD150 x 1.5,Mobylette SP93,Ural Cossack,Ural M63,CZ 250 Sport,Honda Varadero 125,lots of bicycles & tricycles including (but not only) Sunbeams,Higgins & Bates!
User avatar
David
BXpert
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Manchester
x 47

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by David »

Just a update on this thread.

I have a theory on why the Peugeot transfer boxes have "stronger" splines. It appears that the splines are the same as the Citroen ones, However, There is a ring inside the Peugeot transfer box that squeezes tightly on the end of the splines thus making it harder to jump & chew them up. In practice I don't know if it actually helps or not. But it does make the gearbox harder to get on & off!

Also while I have been swapping the box over I have found some other little potential problems that should be noted;

- The inner halfs of the drive shafts are different! The left one is longer for the Peugeot transfer box & the right one appears to have a different shaped end on it, Although I still need to look in to this further. Also the 405 seems to have a wider wheelbase than the BX, as the complete shafts seem to be longer, So I can't just use the complete Peugeot shafts. I was under the impression they were both the same.

- The speedo cable drive rod & cog are different; The Peugeot one has 13 teeth on the cog, where the Citroen one has 15. I don't know if it affects the speedo readings yet with it having different cogs, But I will report back with my findings. (unless someone already knows).
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

2016 Ford Focus Zetec - Daily Driver. (Absolute bone shaker).
User avatar
barry badger
BXpert
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:17 am
Location: north west.
x 7

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by barry badger »

I have said this before. I think the splines are perfectly strong enough, i'm sure the problem is the grease drying out. You see exacly the same problem on volkswagen t5s, renault scenics , citroen synergy autos and i'm sure others that i haven't come across. All these have the same problem of factory lube drying out and rapid destruction of the splines. If a system could be devised to lubricate the splines ( as has been done by some with the rear arm bearings ) i'm sure they would have a good long trouble free life.
1993 tzd estate, on sorn
1992 tzd estate, slowly being raided for parts
1992 txd estate, "doom blue" on the road
1991 4x4 estate, on sorn
Izaak
New Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:03 am
Location: Poole
My Cars: BX TZD 1.7 Turbo Hatch
BX TGD 1.7 Hatch
x 2

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by Izaak »

All fascinating reading. Thanks for supplying and keep it up! 😀. Any idea about where to get a prop shaft, rear drive shafts and hubs ? Are the rear driveshafts the same as the front ?
The 405R4 locks the diff by pressing a button . I’m guessing it’s the rear diff that it locks from reading here ? But there is an electrical input into the 405 Transfer Box. So I’m not sure ?
You say the Diff fitted to the BX is the same dimensions as the 405 Transfer Box. I’m thinking about fitting it to a Turbo Diesel and worry the Transfer Box won’t fit.. but if it’s the same size as the Diff which it replaces thennit sounds like there won’t be a problem .... what do you think ?
Defender110
Over 2k
Posts: 5917
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:02 pm
Location: Harwood, Bolton
My Cars: Land Rover Discovery Series 1 200tdi 3 door
Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5
2020 Fiat Panda cross 4x4 twin air.
x 27

Re: Peugeot 405 4x4 Transfer Box & Diff Questions

Post by Defender110 »

Izaak, this is a five year old post you are replying to?
Kevan
1997 Mercedes C230 W202
2003 Land Rover Discovery Series 2 Facelift TD5 - Daily driver / hobby days and camping.
1993 Land Rover Discovery 200tdi Series 1 3 door - in need of TLC
2020 Fiat Panda 4x4 Cross Twin Air.
Post Reply