Bio fuels

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:14 am

After seeing those two veg-oil powered BXs for sale on ebay it's got me interested in the conversion. Has anyone done it or know how to do it? I've got my head round the basics : extra tank for veg oil plus heater for cold starting and filter etc.
Where are these kits available and is there one suited for the BX? Mine is the 1.9 D with Bosch pump. Amazing thing is that when Rudolf Diesel designed his engine it was intended for the third world to run on peanut oil.
Has anyone seen that new documentary : The Oil Crash? That is frightening. About possible post oil collapse of society and resource scarcity . Not a cheery subject but I want to do something rather than just feed the issue. Any thoughts welcome. Cheers

st gilles · Post by **st gilles** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:17 am

I don't know how far you want to go with this but as you have the Bosch pump you could use a percentage (quite a high percentage) of veg oil in yours with no need to adapt anything. I use up to 50% in my Xsara as a norm with no ill effects so far. Only problem I have had is that it doesn't start on the first turn of the key as it used to when its been a bit cold overnight.

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Tue May 29, 2007 12:56 pm

Thanks for reply Mike. I'm just investigating the options at the moment. That's interesting that I could run already on some veg oil but I read that cold starting was the issue especially in winter as veg oil solidifies unless mixed, hence the need for the heater.
With the veg oil that you use in your Xsara, how is performance and economy effected? We have bio diesel available at the pump here but it's not that much cheaper than the petroleum based one hence thoughts about re-cycling old cooking oil from The Chinese restaurant here. No doubt this will lead to a tangle of red-tape/taxation/regulation that only the Germans can create as well as being more labour intensive to collect and clean etc. I sent a mail to the seller of those veg oil BXs asking him what sort of rig he's got in there.

st gilles · Post by **st gilles** » Tue May 29, 2007 3:08 pm

Hi Todd, when I say it doesn't start as well in the morning.... it still starts on the first turn of the key but not the way that it used to ...if you know what I mean. ie. if you came to se my car with a view to buying it you would have no qualms about the way it starts...its just that I notice the difference from before. I've run it through the winter here (albeit a mild one here in Hertfordshire) and never had a problem with it.
Performance is not affected (but then it is only the 1.9D and it ain't got none anyway).....to me its still acceptable...along with the economy.
I reckon its slightly down around the low 40's as opposed to the mid 40's.
Allegedly, I put 10 litres of svo in and then top up with £10 (around 10.54 litres) worth of Tescos finest (or whoevers is cheaper that day). I will usually get around the 220 miles mark out of that combined...just worked it out and that is in fact 48 miles to the gallon. As I never get the chance to let the car get really low and I never brim it I just have to guess re the MPG most of the time. And I run my Xsara as a private hire car (mini cab) so its working quite hard most of the time with lots of stop start and London journeys.....all in all I'm very pleased with the economy.
Don't know what the price of oil is over there though. I know in France its actually more than the cost of straight diesel so there's no sense in doing it. I pay 53 p a litre for mine in Tesco and buy it in 10 litre drums...although Costco are now doing the same oil in 20 litre drums and the cost falls to 46p a litre: gotta do my sums here as CostCo has a £29 yearly fee. Still worth it I think.
Hope that helps re the svo......saw a programme on TV recently showing how a guy has all the paraphenalia re the WVO and I'm sure it was cheap but it took up a lot of room (which he had as he lived on a farm) great idea though, he was running an old 508D merc van with the heater etc in the back and used a coil which he ran the vans coolant through to heat up the WVO.
Worth exploring...and the svo does't make your car smell of chips! In fact it reminds me more of the old Castrol 'R' which we used to put into bikes as that was vege based as well.
Good luck.

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Tue May 29, 2007 4:14 pm

thanks Mike, I'm going to price up the veg oil bought in bulk against diesel which is €1.10 per litre here at the moment, probably a bit cheaper than UK but price is rising.. and rising

citroen7 · Post by **citroen7** » Tue May 29, 2007 4:55 pm

I run both the bx and the 405 on bio diesel which i can now get locally for 79p per litre and yes starting in the morning is not as smooth as it used to be but performance is better the only other thing i have done is change the fuel filter more often as bio drags all the sh*te out of the tank.
it is possible to make your own bio for about 45p per litre including tax,but i have not got all the gear together yet to start but hopefully over the summer i will get started!

cauchoiskev · Post by **cauchoiskev** » Tue May 29, 2007 8:33 pm

st gilles wrote: I know in France its actually more than the cost of straight diesel so there's no sense in doing it.

Nah, veg oil is around 85c here, diesel around 1.05 euros, so there is a difference, but not enormous, unless you are well in with a Kebab shop owner or similar and are willing to filter and risk being stopped by the customs and excise...

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:31 pm

Over here, if u get caught its called defrauding the tax office & it will be a mega fine so u have to register for fuel duty tax which i believe is about 29p a litre? So if u can make your own its dirt cheap & would save a stack.

e.g 66 litre tank x29p=£19.14, as opposed to diesel @ 95.9p=£63.29, only a small difference of £44.15 per tank. So if u did 16000 miles p/a, well i'm sure everyone gets the picture.....

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:30 pm

I THINK (only) the position is summarised in this 'Brief'

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief3707.htm

Please make your own inquiries - I won't be responsible if the proposals never happen or Ghastly Gordon changes his mind again.

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:22 pm

That would be handy if the 2500 litres p/a came into force.....

st gilles · Post by **st gilles** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:02 pm

As above, everyone should make up their own minds. But having been on the enforcing end of many laws that were subsequently 'softened' or were in the process of being 'looked at' and knowing how those were 'enforced' at the time of the 'changes'. I consider that the government are unlikely to take action on a law that is soon to be changed (2500 litres etc etc) as the appeal process(es) would still be going on and they now know better having fallen foul of this in the past.
I stand corrected on the price of veg oil....but as you have said its such a small difference compared to here.....where abouts are you finding this price, lidls, aldis or the like?

toddao · Post by **toddao** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:33 pm

I filled up today for the first time with Bio diesel. It's 93c per litre ( 63p) as opposed to €1.14 (77p) for normal. Car went very well and also emitted that not too unpleasant smell of frying tonight. When I was idling at the lights, the motor actually seemed to rattle less.
I read everyone's comments and was thus encouraged to try. Luckily our local petrol station supplies it because none of the others around her seem to. Went to the supermarket to price up veg oil and I couldn't find one that was cheaper on the litre though there are other places to try.
Apart from perhaps needing to change the filter more regularly are there any other things that I should watch out for if I go 100% Bio diesel? And does anyone know the difference between 'official' bio diesel and the bog standard veg oil - does it have some sort of conditioner in it to prevent it from solidifying?

citroen7 · Post by **citroen7** » Thu May 31, 2007 8:17 pm

bio diesel is "refined" veg oil, usually from used oil from the local chippy ,chinese, etc. It has had certian chemicals added to take out the sludge in the oil which means that extra heating systems are not required.should you decide to run on fresh veg oil you still have to pay duty on that oil.
There is a plan B fill your tank half full whith ordinary diesel and then top up with veg oil from tesco! i have not done this myself i hasten to add but i do not see why it would not work also if you were dipped ther is no way they could tell with out further tests and just give them the name of the
garage wich sells bio diesel
Food for thought for you all but i am not encouraging anybody to break the law just giving you the "options"

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Thu May 31, 2007 8:47 pm

I've got the lucas pump & i tried a 5% & 10% fuel tank volume of veg oil from tesco's, poured it in neat. A bit noisy on startup, but seemed fine otherwise, slightly different smell from the exhaust.

However i was worried everytime i saw a panda car incase they were behind me & smelt chips & might pull me over. So only did it briefly, however, seeing as everyone reckons the bosch pump is the only one that u should be doing this to, i havent done it since.

I wont have caused any damage to the pump using those lowish concentrations?

ssray · Post by **ssray** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:46 am

Mulley stop adding veg,with your lucas pump you cant even ues such low amounts,it WILL break and it will give no notice whatever http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php highcompression 2 at goat ind is the expert i usally trust-you would need a well built 2 tank system that would heat the oil up before it hits your pump.

Those pandas wont bother you its customs and excise that are the ones who will dip your tank,why not get a few bio diesel recipets and keep them in your car ` i filled up with this last time officer`

.

I had a 1.9na bx estate with a bosch pump and a 205 before that, the 205 as it was only a heap was run on up to 100% svo from supermarkets/costco( costco ktc brand is soya so will gell earlier than rapeseed) i also did the same with the bx and during the winter i would add 10-20% unleaded,mixed outside the tank in a jerry can to make sure it would be mixed, with unleaded added it did seem to perform better and the only down side was that if i had to strong a mix of veg it was extra cold the starter would do extra work and for the fist 30-60 secs tickover would be erratic.

i can only reccomend veg and its derivatives and have converted my current rover 420td to a two tank system with a heat exchanger and two solonoid valves, i run it in diesel mode until the car is warm usally 3-5 miles and then i switch to straight veg-no diffrence, you cant tell an i have to check the switches and that the return line to the second tank is getting warm.

The rides rubbish compared to the bx though.

Ray

p.s. some people use pollack valves but mine only lasted 6mths,about 9k and i had to replace it with seprate valves.