Spooks in the electricals.

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:10 pm

Whilst "fine tuning" the TZi yesterday in conditions that bring back childhood memories of Accrington (cold wet and miserable) I get an order from above (SWMBO) that the TZi has to be garaged in something more than the carport due to the crappy weather that looks like continuing, so I remove the 16V from its piece of hallowed concrete so as to clear a path to get the other car in.
As I drive in, in the dark, I clip the nearside mirror on a bench and fold it back at around 45 degrees. I get out and express my disgust for trying to do it by myself "^%%*^*^(*&(( (*&^*^%&^ (*" and turn the key off whilst I go and get a second pair of eyes to guide me in. No probs so far!

When I turn the key off, all the warning lights on the dash light up and the warning buzzer goes off. (I understand you guys don't get these buzzers, but it's like a mechanical donkey.....heeeawww, heeeaww etc etc.) At first I thought it was due to me opening the door with the lights still on, but even with the lights off, it still does the same.

It works like this:

Turn key on, lights come on as they should on the dash.
Starts engine, lights go off as they should and buzzer stops as it should.
Turn key off, engine stops as it should, but lights and buzzer come on which they shouldn't.

First reaction is that it was the ignition switch but then if that's the case, why does the engine stop when the key is turned off? If it were the switch, nothing would turn off.
Was it coincidence that this problem started when I nudged the bench or could there be something in the electric mirror that has contributed to it.
Could it be a relay that has frozen closed and if so, where do I start looking?
The alarm/immobiliser stopped operating a while back, so is it possible it's in there, but if so, why can I start the engine.
I eventually disconnected the battery as the only way to turn off the lights and the noises.
Any suggestions???

Alan S

prm · Post by **prm** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:49 pm

Alan is it actually raining at last ??

You wouldn’t have heated mirrors in Aus !!
Try disconnecting the multi plug at the rear of the mirror switch first this should isolate any mirror circuits and see if there is any improvement.
If you haven’t got heated mirrors the wiring may still be there shorting out.
Drop the fuse out on the rear tailgate heater as the mirror heating cables may be connected to the same relay circuit.
The only other point to try, what happens when you disconnect the 4way ignition switch multi-plug, under the centre consol, by the clutch pedal.
Auxiliary ignition switch circuit still engaged??
Measure the draw on the battery with everything off.
Also the immobiliser may be tied into additional circuits such as curtsey lights or even a car circuit protection system. Throw the bu--er over the wall and put a manual switch under the dash!! You will do when it goes on the blink, miles from anywhere or the centre lane of a motorway!!

Regards

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:46 pm

Haven't had time to look at anything yet due to combination of crappy weather (it actually rained)

and the TZi making life interesting with a niggly problem, but when I shifted yesterday, I connected the battery up, it still waled and flashed lights at me and as the key was turned, the central locking sounded as though it was going to lock me in; it didn't but the locks gave a whirr.
I'm beginning to think perhaps it's somehow associated with the alarm/immobiliser system as there's a motion sensor inside the car just alongside the mirror that was tweaked.

Alan S

kiwi · Post by **kiwi** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:32 am

I would be very inclined to say it is your Alarm/immobiliser at fault.

DLM · Post by **DLM** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:24 pm

The alarm system on the TZi I owned gave a ridiculous number of problems: I do feel they have a finite useful life, and don't interact too well with Citroen electrics as they age.

I was finally left with the wonderful paradox of an very loud alarm/immobiliser very much in the "set" state, but no possibility of disabling it by any "legal" means - one of the pins to the plip receiver had rotted out.

I entered the car, triggered the alarm, flipped the bonnet and disconnected the battery. Exit large quantities of black wire, enter huge sigh of relief and cue relieved neighbours once the correct splices were made.

By the way, the manual override switch had no effect whatsoever....

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:39 pm

bring back childhood memories of Accrington (cold wet and miserable)

Alan!,
When did you leave Accy then? I lived in Accrington (and Oswaldtwistle) between 1980 and 1996, apart from a couple of years 89-91.
Whereabouts did you live? We were in Ossy first, then Ormerod St, then up to Millerfold Ave (Fern Gore), before finally a couple of houses on Craven St, just round the corner from Willow Mount WMC.

My daughter and her boyfriend now run the Bees Knees pub in the town centre (St James St, opposite the church), can't remember what it used to be called before the 80s!

Cheers
Dave

prm · Post by **prm** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:28 pm

David
That wasn’t the white estate – ex Tom
Bl - -dy system.

Alan
I believe Citroen approved ?? Harry Moss Alarms for BX’s
It was a modular set-up, with add-on packages, all controlled from a single remote.
Central locking, widow closure, vehicle tilt, movement sensors and electrical circuit protection. Had one fitted on a new TZD, great system. You might find all the modules at the rear of the centre consol, under the rear pull out pocket.

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:21 pm

This car being Aus. design standards is fitted with a Mongoose system although I've got one up the yard with a Cobra installed.
That's probably an even scarier prospect than a factory job as the guys who work on them out here always seem to find an "easy" way of doing things.
Spoke to #1 son who does MoTeC installations so can find his way around a Citroens electricals (when the mood strikes him), hopefully this weekend.

My family was living at Oswaldtwistle when I was born, moved to Burnley Road when I was a kid and we were living at Bold Street when we left the UK but that was long before you were there I would imagine.
I can still remember the Coppice at the top of the street and watching them sled down it and a few times had model planes land on our roof when somebody got a really good thermal on the hill.
Cobbled street too IIRC but I'd imagine by now Bold street would have been tarred over and "modernised" a bit.

Alan S

mountainmanUK · Post by **mountainmanUK** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:28 pm

Bold Street is mostly tarmacced now, but I think the very top block or two still has its cobbles! Not really modernised at all though, in fact it's actually now a pretty run-down part of town!

If you give me a week or so, I'll try to grab a couple of photos of Bold Street / Burnley Road, to post on here for your "memory" collection!

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:01 pm

A look at 151 Bold Street if you get a chance will be interesting.

Alan S

DLM · Post by **DLM** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:08 pm

David
That wasn’t the white estate – ex Tom
Bl - -dy system

It most certainly was Peter - however did you guess....?

Lovely car in most other respects (even without the aircon working). I drove the white estate around with the aircon in a non-functioning state until Tom was ready to transplant it Grolliffe. The TZi and the car that replaced it (well looked-after TGD turbo) were a couple of the nicest BXs that I've driven. After a while, the speedo on the white TZi started to stick on pessimistic readings, which made me a little wary on motorways, but it certainly was fun to drive when running at optimum tune - even though it was a bit of a pig at the start of a journey before it had warmed up properly.

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:29 am

Well today was the day for excorcisms.

#1 son arrived and we ripped the dash apart on the 16V then I went walkabout while he fiddled with the innards. I did this because this system has a little "extra" to it in the way he had wired it in with the immobiliser somehow (ask him not me)

operating through the ECU so that even if they got in and broke the steering lock and hotwired it, they still can't jump start it or use the starter, so I took a hike as this kinda stuff makes my head hurt.

When he hauled out the Mongoose and stripped it down and reassembled, the eeaawws stopped. $\:D/$ The plip works again and the siren(s) work again.

Now, onto the TZi. Did a leakdown test and it was way above average with leakdown ranging from 0 to 1.8% and as 2% is good and 5% acceptable, I'm rapt that an engine with only 300 klms can be that good; must still have my touch. $\:D/$
Rechecked the compression figures which seem a bit low but have come to the conclusion that somehow I've managed to stuff up the bloody cambelt fit....how I've done that is beyond me as I did it with the engine on the bench, so it proves that after a while, you get so used to working in confined spaces, on your head, that when you get a job out in the open, you freak out and stuff it up.
Anyway, that one's got to be proven and I can only hope the diagnosis is correct.
Hopefully I'll find out Sunday and report the result. At least I don't feel a proper goose as I've had 3 or 4 other Citroen and general motor mechanics look at it and they were as much at a loss over it as I was.

Alan S

Post by **docchevron** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:48 pm

Not a bad day all in all then Alan.
I know what you mean, you get so used to doing jobs by feel when you cant actually see what the hell your doing it looks like a completeky different job when it's staring you in the face!

Not teaching you to suck eggs, but have you done a wet and dry compression test??

BTW, I'm glad AF is up and running again!

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:06 pm

It's had the lot and mechanically nobody can find a fault in it.
The leakdown test was done with all the special dials etc using 125+ psi compressed air, two gauges to check pressure max and second for inside cylinder pressure when supply is at max on a dead cold engine and those figures above were the readings, so it couldn't be any better. Hot, they're flat out holding the gauge in when I hit the starter.

Alan S

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:09 pm

It's had the lot and mechanically nobody can find a fault in it.
The leakdown test was done with all the special dials etc using 125+ psi compressed air, two gauges to check pressure max and second for inside cylinder pressure when supply is at max on a dead cold engine and those figures above were the readings, so it couldn't be any better. Hot, they'll be flat out holding the gauge in when I hit the starter, but according to the powers that be, the compression test as we did it is typical of an engine one tooth out. He did the calculation and IIRC he reckoned one tooth is = to around 11 degrees. I'll recheck the figure with him when I see him later.

Alan S