TZD starting woes, plus extras

ohms · Post by **ohms** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:20 pm

The TZD has started playing up already...It's always been a bit of a slow starter, needing the glow plugs even when upto temp to start. The starter doesn't sound as though it's spinning the engine with quite the urge of any other XUD engined car I've owned, and can sound as if the battery's flat, but nevertheless it's always strted on the first crank with the glow plugs.

Yesterday it decided that it wasn't going to start no matter how much cranking I gave it. Inevitably this flattened the battery.

It looked to me as though it was losing fuel pressure when cold, but all seems OK. I had to abandon it yesterday morning and get to work in the GF's car. On getting home, I tried jump starting it off the mrs running TD fiesta, but still it wouldn't fire...Again, it sounded as though the battery was flat as the starter doesn't seem to be cranking the engine at the rate it should. In the end I got it going with easy start...last resort, but sure enough up she fired despite less than adequate cranking abilities.

I stopped and started the car with no problems after it had been running. then this morning, came out to it, and the same thing, lardy cranking, and just as I shouted my last curse she fired. SO off I went to work. My initial thinking was that it was the battery so I fitted a new one. The alternator has been tested and on full load(everything running) it's not quite hacking it. marginally under the desired output, so it's on the way out.

Strted the car leaving work and even with the new batt, it's still struggling to fire, lazy cranking all as before. Again I thought about the fuel pressure issue, but even when I had primed the system, it was still no better. I also noticed that the throttle spindle on the pump was weeping slightly, so again am thinking fuel pressure. It eventually started and got back me back home, where I tried to undo the nut securing the throttle assembly and it clean snapped the thread off the top of the spindle. Fortunately the whole lot didn't boing apart and is holding but I'm gonna need a new spindle. IS replacing the threaded spindle shaft fairly straightforward or is it a new fuel pump job? Gave up on going any further becuase I hope it can get me to work in the morning as is.

All told, well and truly pissed off with it.

Thoughts and advice on everything I've just said would be greatly appreciated chaps.

DavidRutherford · Post by **DavidRutherford** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:28 pm

If the engine isn't spinning over as fast as it should, even with a jump-start, then you either have a high-resistance contact somewhere (a terminal getting rather hot maybe) or your starter has some shorted turns. Check the earth strap and the battery +ve cable to the starter solenoid. These starter motors are usually very reliable, so I'd expect you will find a corroded earth lead or similar.

As for the spindle. Yes, it's replaceable, but it's a bit of a fiddle. Find a local diesel injection specialist, and they can replace it with the pump in situ. The weep of fuel will be due to a worn o-ring on that spindle, so it'll need dismantling to change the seal anyway.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:36 pm

Follow the positive lead from the battery and about level with the battery tray you will find an enormous plug in connector. Pull it apart and make sure its clean.

tom · Post by **tom** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:43 pm

Be aware that the four brush starter can often have a brush stick and be running on two which makes it very sluggish but a strip and clean costs nothing and can reap amazing rewards. Work your way through the sticky at the top of this column. It is very helpful.

ohms · Post by **ohms** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:22 am

The cambelt needs doing anyway, as it's been 5 years since the last change. So I'm going to fit a new pump at the same time. I'm going to retrofit the bosch. Can somebody just confirm if the lucas injectors will work with the bosch unit and also, will the lucas solid injector pipes mate up with the bosch pump and also bosch injectors if needed please.

Can source a bosch pump, but haven't come up with any injectors of hard fuel pipes as yet.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:57 am

The throttle spindle on the injection pump is not on the high pressure bit - this is on the end immediately under the injection pipes.

New throttle seals spindles etc are freely available and not very expensive. I believe they can be obtained from Lucas Services which are all over the place but hide on the internet. Your local yellow pages will reveal.

Any diesel specialist will do this job and probably carry the necessary bits - again have a look in yellow pages. Diesel pumps are fine bits of engineering and are eminently repairable.

You can probably find a description of doing the job on here.

From the sound of it your starting problem is due to cranking speed rather than pump trouble.

The hard pipework is different from Lucas to Bosch.

Post by **docchevron** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:53 pm

ohms wrote: Can somebody just confirm if the lucas injectors will work with the bosch unit and also, will the lucas solid injector pipes mate up with the bosch pump and also bosch injectors if needed please.

Er, well, the car will run, but it will run badly, very badly, and it WILL NEVER pass an emissions test.

The crack off pressures are very different between Lucas and Bosch.

The injector pipes are different.
So you will need the injectors and pipes too.

That said, it's an easy task to change the throttle spindle seals on a Lucas pump. It's a cow of a job on the Bosch.

ohms · Post by **ohms** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:18 pm

Thanks for the advice chaps. I've just whipped the starter motor out and will be replacing it with a new unit. Checked at work and we don't have one specifically for the BX TZD on the shelf. Can anybody confirm if all xantias, 306's, 405, ZX's etc etc etc use the same starter and I'll check availability tomorrow.

Also took the top off the lucas pump and the o ring seals have all but disintegrated, so new seals could well help matters. I've tried taking the throttle spindle off (as it's snapped and needs replacing), by undoing the nut that holds it at the other end. Got absolutely soaked as it was peeing it down. Can somebody tell me if the complete assembly with spindle is available. Can't see how you'd seperate just the spindle as it's designed never to be taken apart, so looks like the whole assembly up to the retaining nut will come as one. Can somebody just confirm this for me please.

It's one hell of a fiddly job trying to get that nut off in a pool full of diesel. SO fiddly in fact that I couldn't suss what size the nut is. tried a 6mm, but too small, tried a 1/4" and that seemed ok. Is it metric. somebody has been at it before, becuase the head is slightly rounded off, so I want to make sure I get exactly the right sized spanner on it.

Those who've done this before, please enlighten me.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:56 pm

Starter motors for the 8valve 16, 17 & 19 XU engine types are the same type and mounting flange. But you need a "Mitsubishi" type with reduction gear on a diesel engine to crank against the much higher compression ratio.
IIRC it will be a 1.1Bhp type for diesels with the petrol ones being 0.9Bhp types.

ohms · Post by **ohms** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:57 pm

Fitted a new starter and all is good, started first turn of the key, so am a very happy chappy. just got to get hold of a new spindle and fit it, because still got no throttle at the mo. Off to a lucas service centre tomorrow to get the bits.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:30 pm

You may want this schematic for a Lucas pump (sourced by Jim) :

http://www.eastment.net/images/ldp.jpg

ohms · Post by **ohms** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:11 am

Thanks Anders. I have been to my local Lucas service centre today, to try and get the bits I need, but they need the pump serial number. Unfortunately this isn't visible without taking the pump off. Does anybody have a spare lucas pump off a TZD in the shed, that they could give me the serial number of please so I can get these bits ordered and the damn thing back on the road again please.

ohms · Post by **ohms** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:15 am

The part I need is just above 247m on the diagram, to the right of 264m (spring) and just below the 2 rubber o rings 293m.

Basically the throttle spindle with the ctlinder atached off the side. the first thing you come to when taking the top off the pump.

Dosw anybody have a lucas part number for it. Will save me a lot of hassle.

thanks chaps

adamskibx · Post by **adamskibx** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:02 pm

The Lucus pump may be very different, but ive done this job on a Bosch pump and it was OK. I went to a Bosch service centre in Loughborough to get a new O-Ring for about 23p, and it worked a treat, although I did have to use a magnetic pointer to fish a spring out of the diesel filled pump, and its reasonably time consuming to get the throttle spindle to grip the inners in the right place so that the accelerator doesn't rev the engine when not pressed, or the opposite.

tom · Post by **tom** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:18 pm

ohms wrote:The part I need is just above 247m on the diagram,

I think that this is 208m or Radio Luxembourg. 247m is definitely radio 1.
Nurse!